7 · The Myth Of Having It All - With Anna Hemmings
Podcast show notes
In this episode of "Frustrated and Exhausted," we welcome Anna Hemmings, a transformation expert in the third sector.
Anna's career is rooted in charities focused on aiding marginalized groups. Her passion for leadership, especially in promoting diversity and inclusivity, makes this conversation a must-listen for anyone interested in how these elements drive organizational success.
Here are the highlights
(04:57) Gender roles, work-life balance, and self-care for women
(14:31) Gender equality in the workplace
(25:47) Leadership, guilt, and role models
(30:30) Work-life balance
Links
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Welcome to Frustrated and Exhausted the podcast for women in leadership, where I help you fulfil your ambitions without sacrificing your sanity, or your resilience.
Today, I am delighted to be welcoming Anna Hemmings to the show. Anna has spent the majority of her career working in the third sector, mainly in charities who deliver direct services to some of the most marginalised people in our society. She specialises in transformation, and in really helping those charities reach the people most in need. Anna is described as an inclusive and empathetic leader, and she works with her teams to create a positive organisational culture rooted in diversity and trust. Anna is really passionate about leadership, which is why I'm so looking forward to this conversation. And in particular, she's passionate about recognising that diversity and inclusivity drive success for organisations. Can't wait to have this conversation. I hope you enjoy. Hi, Anna, welcome to Frustrated and Exhausted the podcast for women in leadership. Really happy to have you on the show today.
Anna
Thank you for having me.
Ruth
Always a pleasure. Today, we're going to be talking about the perception that women can have at all, which is something that is out there a lot. And I'd be really interested in just hearing a bit about what your take on that is. So what does that mean to you this having it all?
Anna
I think this whole having it all thing is a bit of a myth. And don't know if it's still out there, I think it I think it probably is the idea that you can work, raise a family, have great relationships, have friends, social life, I mean, you kind of can, but I think we need to be real about the fact that that comes with a lot of compromise, that it's really hard work, that you don't always feel good about it, women have experienced so much guilt. And I think quite often the way women who work and sort of have it all, if you like are represented in the media sort of feeds into some of the misconceptions about it.
Ruth
Okay, what sort of things do you think that that creates for women?
Anna
Well, I think quite often, what you see in the media is women who are at a later stage of their career. So they're very senior, they're on quite high incomes, they can afford help, they can have, you know, whatever sorts of help they need, which is, which is great for them. But not everyone can have that. And particularly, so for for people like me, I don't know what your life was, like, early on in my career, I had kids quite young, and I was a single parent for a while. And I didn't have very much money. And it was very hard. I couldn't, I couldn't sort of just get the help that I needed. And so had to kind of make do and run around a lot and such a few arrangements along the way to make it work. And I think that's probably what it's like for most people, you know, they sort of struggle through with help from friends and family and all this kind of support that women give each other. But it's not as easy as it's made out to be in the media.
Ruth
Yeah. Well what impact do you think that stereotype if you like, of it being easier, easier, as on women in terms of, well, I don't want to, I don't want to put words in your mouth. So what do you think that that impact that has?
Anna
I think the impact is similar to the impact that things like Instagram has where people present a veneer that something's sort of close to perfect? Or maybe their life is close to perfect? I don't know. It can, it can make other people feel that their struggle isn't legitimate in some way, or that they're unusual in the fact that they might be struggling. And certainly, my partner and I between us have got three kids, and we both worked, you know, throughout as you tend to do these days. That's the other thing if people have to these days, because, you know, houses and mortgages are so much more expensive. There's not as much choice perhaps, yeah, about work and sort of who does what around, you know, how you sort of split roles and responsibilities as they used to be. Yeah, so I think it just makes you, I always used to describe that feeling was always being on the edge of disarray, you know, trying to keep it together, trying to remember the stuff for school, trying to kind of do the work stuff. And it always felt like a bit of a struggle. And so I always sort of assumed I was quite a disorganised person. And I don't I don't know that that's the case. I probably just had loads to think about and loads to remember.
Ruth
Yeah, there is definitely something about that mental load, and the juggling of everything. I mean, I know for me, personally, I'm a list person. And if it doesn't, if I forget to write something off the list very often, even now, it just doesn't happen with the best will in the world. It is just there are so many things to do and to remember and to manage.
Anna
Yeah, and there was always, I thought there were so many things to feel guilty about as well. I always describe women as experiencing layers of guilt, you know,.every time I forgot something to do with school or, I don't know, I just sort of felt like I was never on top of it and felt guilty about everything half the time, I think. And you know what, I've talked to my son about this, and he doesn't care that I worked, he thought it was completely normal that I worked. He didn't experience any sense of sort of having less of me or I mean, not being around in enough or anything like that. It was entirely really of my own making, but it's just the expectations we put on ourselves as well I think.
Ruth
Where do you think those expectations come from? Because I do hear this a lot. And I feel it. I definitely feel that's that sense of expectation that, you know, I should solve the shoulds that we have in our heads, isn't it? I should be able to do it all, you know, where did this come from this idea that we're superhuman in some way?
Anna
I don't know, I think it's sort of stems from a few places, because sort of different things have changed, but they all converge. So for example, parenting has changed a lot over the last, if you looked at parenting in the 50s, or 60s, the expectation of parents was very, very different to what it is today, and in the workplace, obviously it's, you know, women absolutely should be functioning equally in the workplace, and education and all of those other things. But if you if you, what hasn't changed is that I think, partly societally in terms of attitudes, and partly sort of structurally in terms of how things like the school year is structured, it doesn't support women to be achieving all of those things at the same time, it makes it quite difficult actually. I don't know. I don't know if you've come to school holidays ever and just though, you know, how are people supposed to manage that, it's really hard.
Ruth
It is really hard. It's really hard. And I think, you know, when you kind of hit different age groups, and things like that, and everybody wants different things, and needs different things, and you're trying to juggle all of that as well, that it's really difficult. What are some of the things that helped you navigate all of that, whilst you're having a really successful career? You know, how did you navigate some of those challenges?
Anna
I think women are very good at just keeping going, actually, and just somehow keeping the balls in the air and kind of struggling through, I don't think there's any kind of great magic to it. And it's almost that magic that's been presented to us, that's the problem, really, we all just kind of struggle through it, I think. I think, you know, obviously, you have moments of joy within it, whether it's a sort of night out with your friends, or something that you do with the kids or whatever it might be. But I think that's the thing, I don't think there is much magic to navigating it other than, you know, I would encourage people, obviously, to give themselves a break and really listen to their own needs within it, you know, because if you can't keep going, then everything starts to fall apart. And so you do need to find ways to make time for yourself and try and take care of yourself. And sometimes those moments are quite snatched, but I remember using the commute a little bit to do that, to work, you know, just it was just a moment where I could listen to some music or listen to a podcast or you know, just have that space, or even think about making a list, like you I’m a list person. But yeah, just creating those moments that you know, friendships and the support of other women has always been just so invaluable to me. I'm lucky that I like my work. I love what I do. And I think you know, I've always worked in the third sector in charities and you know, something that's really close to my heart. So doing a job that you care about helps I think as well and having the support of friends. I mean, I really actually couldn't have done it without my family and my friends supporting me all the way through. So, you know, I just think it's one of those things where you, you do get through it, and it's easy to give yourself a hard time but equally I don't think there's much magic. I don't know, what do you think? What's your best tips been that you've had?
Ruth
Yeah, I think there is something about learning technology for your needs. For me, definitely that has been kind of, I’ve spoken about this before but that's been the hardest thing for me. And it's probably why I kind of at times, was teetering on the edge of burnout. And I really recognise what you said about that sense of always being on the cusp. Yeah, dancing on the edge. Yeah, dancing, I don't know, wavering swaying slightly on the edge of it all kind of crumbling down. And I think, you know, I mean, we're kind of on the run up to Christmas. We've got all the different things going on at the moment. I mean, I'm definitely really feeling that teetering on the edge like it's just gonna take one thing and the whole stack of cards is coming down. I'm sure I've forgotten somebody's present somewhere. But I think that sense of taking time for your, having something that's yours within it all for me. It has definitely become really important. And before, before we came, we started recording we were discussing our rescue dogs and one of the reasons that I was really keen to get a dog is I will take time to take the dog for a walk that will get me out, it will give me space to breathe and to be outdoors and to have quiet, a little bit of quiet every day in my day. And I mean, don't be wrong, obviously, it's hard work in other ways. But that to me just feels like something quite precious. And for me that one thing will meet quite a few of my own needs. So I think that what you said earlier about, yes, we have to endure it, we have to get through and that resilience is really, really important. But it's it's finding those things that just help you to, to have that little bit of balance, I guess.
Anna
And I yeah, I totally find that on on dog walks, as long as it dogs being good there's always there as well. But yeah, no, it does, it does create space, and it's great being outdoors, certainly for my well being. It's really great being outdoors and doing those walks. And I think as well, the other thing that's really important is allyship. And that's becoming much, much more of a theme across all equality and diversity work and, you know, sort of partners and family and so on, I've got a big part to play in how they sort of think about this and support. As I said earlier, I think structurally, things need to change as well. But that might take longer. There's this phrase that I sometimes use, which sometimes makes people a bit confused about emotional labour and women, I think, quite often do a lot of emotional labour around family. So even if you've got help and support, there's this feeling that you're still the one that's got to think about things and remind and remember and sort of nudging, cajole and all that, you know, and perhaps, perhaps we need to let go of some of that as well. You know, we're probably a bit predisposed to taking on things more than we should. But I think that allyship and it becoming normalised for men, well I say men, I don't know why it's not always men, but you know what I mean, for partners or couples to participate equally in child care. That needs to become normalised which isn't really at the moment. And that will help as well I think, for women to share that emotional load, as well as the literal load of doing all the organising and caring and running around and collecting that we tend to do.
Ruth
Who's been your greatest ally, in navigating all of this. And in your career?
Anna
Well, I mean, I'd have to give a shout out to my my parents, my mom and dad, they I think in they've supported me hugely, and they're close to my family, which is really nice. So they've been a great support. And I think they also, I don't think they knew they were doing at the time, but they raised us in a fairly gender neutral sort of way. So they've been hugely important. But then also, I was supported by some great women early in my career, who made it possible for me to work in a way that worked for me, they recognise my sort of skills, I suppose over and above, the need to be there long hours, or something like that, you know, yet they understood that I was on my own with my son and therefore I had, I didn't have any choice really, but to pick him up from childcare and that kind of thing at the end of the working day. And they were hugely, hugely supportive around that. And that made a massive difference to my life, I didn't really, it was as I was going into I was only in my 20s. And I was just going into my first senior roles, and I didn't really think I'd be able to do them, because I had so many commitments in terms of kids and so on. But they made it possible and encouraged me and supported me and stayed in touch. And, you know, I've had lots of other great mentors, but I think in terms of those pivotal moments in your career, yeah, I think those that early time, having great mentors at work, and having family support as well made a massive difference to me, particularly because I was on my own with my son at that time. You know, it was that support was even more valuable I think.
Ruth
Yeah. What would you say to anybody who is in a leadership role right now and listening to this, in terms of what they should be thinking about and doing in order to help bring people through because we know that that that first rung on the ladder, that first promotion and your women are often a bit further behind in getting those early promotions. And that's partly because of, you know, other commitments and things. So, what can we be doing as leaders in organisations right now to help those women still step forward, step forward at the same pace?
Anna
I mean, there's a lot of factors in this isn't there. Society needs to change, expectations, attitudes need to change, structurally, things like the child care system and school system need to change. And the cult that, I think a lot of this is about organisational culture at work and to have a truly, I’m really passionate actually about a kind of diverse and inclusive culture, it really is important to me. And this is just one part of that really. A culture, it's not. It's not just about women, it is about that allyship and recognising that people have families and commitments outside of work. And I've always found that if you recognise that and give people what they need in terms of flexibility, so far as possible, it reaps rewards in spades, it's not a choice between one or the other. If you give people what they need to make their lives work, then, you know, they function so much better at work anyway, I think that organisational culture that's really rooted in equality and diversity. So really a genuinely inclusive feel, does have better productivity, does have better retention of staff, does attract better quality of staff, because actually, if you know, you're quite often can cast the net wider if, for example, you're flexible and hybrid in the way that you work, you can recruit people from the whole country then. So I think in so many ways, I suppose how we encourage and support women into those leadership roles is part of a bigger picture of how we make work, work for everybody, you know, and how we ensure that our whole society is represented within that. Yeah, so but I mean, in terms of specific advice, because I'm sort of conscious of everything I've just said probably doesn't particularly help anybody. But um, but I suppose I would encourage women to be open about what you need, to really think about what you need to make it work and have honest conversations about that, I suppose, talk it through with your employer and encourage your employer to recognise the benefits of giving you the flexibility that you need.
Ruth
It's such a tough one, because actually, within the law quite a lot these days, it's possible. Yeah. And I guess it's about what decisions organisations and individuals within those organisations make about what they're prepared to do in terms of how they interpret that. And what behaviours, what attitudes really, they are going to take towards creating that kind of more diverse and inclusive workplace, because so much is now possible. But a lot of it now is about what leaders are prepared to do as individuals, and how open I guess they're prepared to be about really taking a long, hard look at some of the unconscious bias that they personally are holding, potentially. We all have unconscious bias. And it does take quite a lot to sort of do that soul searching and can really take a look at yourself and the way that you're potentially behaving or impacting other people without even realising often.
Anna
I think so. But I think what people, often what's maybe less recognised in this debate is are the benefits. So it's sort of seen as a bit of a requirement or a necessity, or something that's kind of, I don't know, on trend at the moment or, I think what people don't see so much is the huge benefits, it benefits your productivity, your retention, you know, there are it's not an and/or. And that's the thing that's frustrating, but I guess, I guess people's own beliefs are very deep rooted, aren't they? And they’re so, sort of woven into our being it can be, it can be difficult to challenge them. I do recognise that. But there, it has never been more important that we do because society is changing so rapidly, and what we want from work and family life is changing, and society is becoming ever more diverse, which I think is a really positive thing. But we sort of need to catch up, you know, all the all the research and evidence around women in the workplace is that it's, you know, we are a very long way off. Yeah, having, you know, true equality. And it's, I mean, I do think progress has been made. If I look back to when I was younger, it's better than it was, but it's just not moving fast enough. And that is frustrating I think. And I feel more frustrated about that as time goes on. So, I mean, unfortunately I don't see any huge change on the horizon. But I do think COVID was interesting, because it really raised some questions about flexibility, hybrid working, home working, and sort of accelerated tech change by about 10 years probably in lots of areas. And it's interesting now where because I suppose at the time, I sort of thought things would go back to normal quite quickly after COVID. But actually we're a couple of years on and I think it's still settling how, you know, how will it really land in the end, but it has offered more flexibility for people. And that's a good thing I think.
Ruth
Yeah, I've seen some attitudes where it's like, no, I want to, I want to see people, I want to see them do their work and you know, those old kind of traditional approaches to the workplace and what it should be like, and yet the evidence doesn't really back it up at all in terms of productivity, you know, those people who are unproductive at home, are the same people who are unproductive in work, you know that, that that doesn't actually change. And yet they, I cannot really for the life of me remember what the report was I was reading a little while ago, but it was effectively seeing that people who are potentially in minority groups in the workplace, whatever that is, whether it's a gender based thing, or, or ethnicity or anything else, actually for them, being able to work remotely has actually reduced stress and burnout significantly in those groups because there is less space in the day, I guess, for those sort of microaggressions that crop up and some of the things that really deplete people and hold them back. And so the benefits of hybrid yes, there's flexibility, but there are so many other benefits, as well in terms of creating that diverse workforce and, and helping people who look after their well being as well. And their, their their own personal resilience in these environments.
Anna
Absolutely. My my one thing about flexibility, actually, but it's just sort of popped into my mind is it reminds me of a, there was a period when the kids were younger, when I noticed that in work, a lot of people would have, particularly women, but a lot of people would go offline at about half four, five, and then come back online at maybe eight, half eight in the evening. And it was this sort of window where it was food and bath and bed and that sort of period for people with kids. But it did make and so the people come back online about half eight and do a bit more work during the evening. But there is a question for me about when does flexibility become just working all the time? You know, it's, it's, it's a balance. Even with that, you know, it's great, it's really important and critical to have flexibility. But you've got to also be honest with yourself about where the where the boundaries lie.
Ruth
Yeah. I can't tell you how many conversations I have with clients about boundaries. And a lot of that is what is, you know, the reason for it is because it is easy to keep working, and keep filling your day with work if you don't have those cutoff points, if that allows you when you've got a young family to do both of those things, and that's something that you're okay with, then that's a choice. But it's just navigating, just identifying really when it's too much, and when actually you need some time for yourself. And again, that comes back to that piece around creating the time and space for just you.
Anna
Yeah, and the drivers for it as well because I think sometimes people can end up feeling so grateful for the flexibility, they feel they have to sort of over sort of work in between, you know, to prove that they're on top of things. Or, of course, there's how much people feel they have to do to be doing the job well. And there's keeping those things in check. It's kind of what sits underneath this. It's okay, if you're coming back to just clear off some emails for half an hour, and then you're done. And it's your evening. But if you feel that you're constantly having to work, it's not healthy at all. Not at all. Definitely not. Yeah, I can imagine you probably do have lots of boundaries conversations
Ruth
Oh definitely. So if you were starting out now, what's the one thing you would do differently in your career?
Anna
I'm actually not someone who generally looks back and I certainly don't really have regrets, I think, I don't think there's anything significant I would have done differently. So I think that indicates that I was probably largely fairly comfortable with my choices. I was always quite aware of what I needed, and what my family needed. And I was also really lucky that I work in a sector where flexibility is quite common. And I have probably, I would guess, had fewer negative gender based experiences at work than than some because the third sector, you know, does employ more women than men and is, I think, quite ahead of the game in terms of making some of this stuff work. I think that there is a real opportunity for other sectors to, because the thing about charities is sometimes I think they're perceived as sort of almost a bit fluffy, but charities do fantastic work and make huge contributions to society, and support, you know, the statutory sector, like the NHS and so on. But also they're very, they're quite entrepreneurial, and they're very innovative, and, as I say, do have quite a large female workforce. So there's quite a lot of good examples within the third sector that other sectors could draw on I think to help improve the experience of, of different groups of women but but the wider equality and diversity agenda is is something that I think there's lots of great examples of in charities you know, I've worked in some that have been fantastic so I don't think I would change much. I used to always say that I wish I'd had more choice. I always had to work. I didn't have any choice but but to work as well as raising a family. And I suppose the one thing that I thought I always wanted was choice. But I'm not sure that I'd have really had done it any differently if I'd have had choice to be honest. I did experience a lot of guilt. And it would have been nice to feel less guilty about so many things. Because I now recognise that I didn't need to, that actually, everybody's fine. Family's fine. My son didn't mind that I worked. I'm fine. You know, I just felt so much guilt. And I probably, if I could change one thing it would be letting go of some of that earlier. Yeah.
Ruth
I think that's such an interesting point because that goes back to those shoulds, we feel like we should be doing the other thing that we're not, you know, for home we feel like we should be working, if we're working, we feel like we should be home. And that guilt is kind of almost constant sometimes. But actually being able to put that down and let go of it could be really freeing.
Anna
Yeah, I think the first step to that is it's kind of accepting it, I got to a point where I accepted that I just felt guilty about everything and kind of accepted the guilt and then I began to be able to let it go.
Ruth
Thanks so much Anna. It was really interesting conversation and lots of great points for people to take away and think more about. Definitely. Now before we finish up, I have a few little short, sharp questions for you. Just so people can get to know a little bit more about you as a person. So what's your favourite book?
Anna
To Kill a Mockingbird.
Ruth
Oh, oh, yes. Good one. What's the best piece of advice you ever received?
Anna
Well I don't know if it's advice. But somebody said to me that if things are tricky at work, it's nearly always about people. Yeah, but I, you know, I love working with people. So luckily I don't mind that.
Ruth
Definitely makes life interesting that's for sure. Yeah it does. Who's your biggest role model?
Anna
I've got lots of role models. Some of my friends are really good role models. To me, actually, I just sort of am amazed by how they juggle everything and get through. My mum is a great role model. She's a good, a good Welsh feminist, that’s how I describe her. Those early mentors at work are fantastic role models. And then in terms of leadership style, I actually, it’s a sort of guilty pleasure of mine. I really like Gareth Southgate's leadership style. I think he's really done a nice job with the England team. I know they're not where everyone wants them to be necessarily. Yeah. And yeah, so there's lots of different people actually, I kind of take a little bit from, from lots in terms of role models.
Ruth
Yeah. I think that probably actually encapsulates really nicely leadership itself, isn't it? Because it's different for everybody. And we can pick and choose different ways of dealing with things at different times don’t we?
Anna
I think so. And also, you can only be yourself, I mean, realistically, you can't emulate somebody else's leadership style completely. You know, leadership is about who you are really, so. So yeah, I think it's, I try and kind of absorb as much as I can from other people. But I think what I like about Gareth Southgate's style of leadership is that he's really open about his own mistakes and difficulties. Yeah. Which I suppose they weren't quite public at the time, but he's, think he's been able to be really honest about that. Out of interest, who are your role models?
Ruth
Ah, that's a really good question. I think like you, there are a few different ones. There's someone I worked with, a man actually, but a feminist man. But who was both a role model and a really strong ally, for me, I mean, literally created space, and time and everything for me. And that was really powerful at a particular point in my career, and just somebody who I think, got a balance right. And at a time where there was quite a particular stereotype of what a leader looked like, was different. And just seeing someone else really sitting quite comfortably in their own difference, I think, was really powerful for me, to see to see and to see how he created space for other people as well. And kept his ego out was really important. For sure.
Anna
I can imagine Yeah, I can really imagine that because I quite admire people who appear to be so comfortable with themselves. Yeah, I mean, I've probably am comfortable with myself, but some people just really ooze it don't yeah, it’s nice to see when it happens.
Ruth
I have become more comfortable with myself. I didn't start out comfortable with myself. That's for sure.
Anna
Yeah. That's often a journey, isn't it? Yeah, it definitely is sort of confidence and comfort levels in an ideal world grow over time, don't they?
Ruth
Yeah, for sure. For sure. Thank you so much. This has been a really, I feel like we could just keep going. This has been a really great conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time. And yeah, have a great Christmas.
Anna
Oh, you too. Yeah. And thank you, thanks so much for having me. I've really enjoyed it.
Ruth
It's a pleasure. What a great conversation that was with Anna hemming, I've taken away quite a few things from that. I think one of the things that really hit me hard was this sense of the layers of guilt that we carry that Anna spoke about, and that needs to accept that, you know, if we continue to believe that we should be doing all and we should be able to have it all, then we're always going to feel guilty. And maybe acknowledging that about ourselves. And that that is what I believe is allows us to kind of let go of some of the guilt. Just put it down for a while. There is that thing that we sort of always assume it's got to be us that has to do all, that if that's you right now, I guess sort of what what can you put down? What can you stop doing or ask someone else to help with. The other thing is the sense of endurance that Anna talked about kind of actually, sometimes we just have to get through some tough times when we are juggling, and it does feel like we’re sort of teetering on the edge sometimes. And but that, you know, her advice that in that, we need to make sure that we're not losing sight of our own needs, that you know, we have to kind of create that space and time for ourselves. And this is something I've spoken about before and and no doubt will continue to be speaking about because it's tough to do at times. But yeah, that importance of making sure that we are really looking after ourselves and creating time to do that. And I think the final thing for me is that really shone out of that conversation was the support that Anna had from other women in her life, whether that was family and friends, you she spoke about her mum, she spoke about friends, but also those women early in her career, who helped her to find that balance, who were prepared to give her the flexibility that she needed because they could see her potential. So I guess for you know, as are you sitting in a leadership role right now, and looking at the people around you, you know, you want that for yourself, of course. But what can you also be doing to give that gift to other people to help them get that flexibility and find that balance, but still be able to perform and be able to do the thing that they really love to do. So there's quite a lot to take away from that. I could actually say a few more things, quite honestly, because there's a lot in that conversation that was really helpful and I hope you found it helpful too.
Thank you so much for joining Anna and me this week and for listening in. Join me again next week when I'll be talking about the pillars of resilience and why you need to be thinking about your pillars. Until then take care.
Thanks for listening to this episode of Frustrated and Exhausted. Hit the follow button for future episodes. You can also follow me on Instagram @resonateleadership and LinkedIn at Ruth Alexandra Wood. I would absolutely love to hear from you. Frustrated and Exhausted is brought to you by Resonate Leadership and the wonderful team at the Podcast Boutique. I'm your host Ruth Wood. Take care and speak to you soon.
