43· Decision Making In A Complex World with Sonja Oliviera
Podcast show notes
This week, I’m thrilled to chat with Sonja Dragojlovic Oliveira, Professor of Architecture at the University of Strathclyde and a true powerhouse in the fields of sustainability, design and innovation.
Sonia shares her insights on decision-making in today’s complex world, where finding the right balance between data, intuition, and different perspectives can feel like an art form. If you've ever felt stuck in a room full of voices—some of them your own—this conversation is for you.
We look at how to navigate a male-dominated industry, embrace portfolio careers, and avoid the pitfalls of over-relying on what we think we know.
Sonia reveals her approach to making better decisions and building strong networks by listening to those hidden, quieter voices within us and knowing when to experiment and take a chance.
If you’re a leader, aspiring leader, or just looking to expand your thinking, there’s plenty here to spark some fresh ideas.
Here are the highlights
(5:47) Balancing Multiple Roles and Responsibilities
(7:45) Challenges of Being a Woman in Male-Dominated Fields
(16:32) Communication and Persistence in Leadership
(19:49) Over-Reliance on Known Knowledge Systems
(25:29) Listening to Different Perspectives and Scaling Decisions
(25:49) Advice for Women Entering Leadership Roles
Get in touch with Sonja here
Get the 5 Day Resilience Kickstarter
Connect with Ruth
-
Welcome to Frustrated and Exhausted, the podcast for women in leadership, where I help you fulfill your ambitions without sacrificing your sanity or your resilience.
Ruth
Sonja, hello and welcome to this week's episode of Frustrated and Exhausted. Today, I'm absolutely delighted to be in conversation with Sonja Dragojlovic Oliviera, who is a Professor of Architecture at the University of Strathclyde in Glasgow, and Sonia has over 20 years experience leading innovation research and she also has a background in industry as well. She's worked across sectors including sustainability, energy, technology and design. She's currently an advisor to the Design Council and a board member of the World Green Building Council, and she's also the founder of Radical Architecture Practice For Sustainability network, which is a European network looking at some of the challenges we face. Sonja is a member of lots of other industry panels and councils as well and clearly a very busy woman. I'm really glad to be speaking to her today about how we can make better decisions as leaders in what is a really complex and volatile world. Join us now.
Ruth
Sonja, thank you so much for joining me today on Frustrated and Exhausted. Hopefully we're not feeling quite like that this morning.
Sonja
No I’m feeling good.
Ruth
Okay, good, good. And you just told me that the sun is shining in sunny Glasgow makes a pleasant change. Today we're kind of going to be focusing on decision making in kind of complex, a complex world, but before we kind of get into the nitty gritty of of that I wonder if you could just set the scene a little bit for us in terms of your background, your career, kind of how you got to where you are now.
Sonja
Yes, of course. Well, I started off in architecture, I trained as an architect in the Glasgow School of Art, far too many years ago now, when it's always surprises me that it was actually quite some time ago and then like most architecture graduates I was really keen to work in industry and then practice and design and build buildings. That was always my dream, even from a very young age my dad worked in construction and I'd kind of seen buildings take shape from about the age of six, and so I'd always wanted to be kind of part of change, kind of changing people's lives, changing people's environments. And so I've worked in industry for a couple of years around the whole world. I was in Middle East and Central Europe in the UK, bits of elsewhere. I was very keen to travel and learn how different cultures approach the built and natural environment. That was something I was keen to kind of build into my practice from quite an early stage of my career. And then around about 2008 we had the financial crisis. We've had lots of crisis since then. So many don't remember. First time in my memory that I remember people mentioning a crisis in terms that seemed multinational up until that time I'd experienced lots of different things that you could have called crises but that was the first time that I was certainly aware of something that was very international, and the construction industry was quite badly hit and I started to think as as both someone in the construction industry but also as a mum. I just had my son then and seeing kind of dropping him off at 7am, picking him up at 7pm I just thought this isn't quite the mum I wanted to be.
Started to rethink what sort of life I wanted for myself and my son and our family, both from my career but also just as a human being I just felt the kind of constants of building and delivering buildings was no longer an ambition of mine. There were many occasions where I felt we shouldn't be building and the building wasn't the solution. It was really difficult to know how to approach that challenge. And so somewhere in that combination of challenges of being a mum, not knowing whether I wanted to continue kind of designing and building in the same way, I started to do some research into, you know, doing a PhD, being at home with my son, thinking that was quite a kind of flexible route to maintaining some sort of intellectual stimulation and being a mum and then started to build a route into academia where I felt I could make the greatest difference in terms of finding roots and a kind of voice into architecture practice that was informed by different kinds of knowledge I had at that time felt I only knew one type of knowledge stream and so I wanted to expand what I could do through other circles.
And so currently I'm a Professor of Architecture at University of Strathclyde and Director of Research in the Department of Architecture. I hold a number of other roles. I'm a design expert in the Design Council. I'm also a board member of the World Green Building Council for Serbia and Southeast Europe, and one of the founders of the Radical Architecture Practice For Sustainability. And a couple of other different roles that you know come up throughout the year that I won't mention.
Ruth
I felt, I felt absolutely exhausted listening to you list that. How, how do you hold all of those different roles? You know it's a real portfolio that you have now of, of roles. How do you manage the nature of that?
Sonja
I think when things, when opportunities emerged I was very keen to take them up. I kind of wanted to explore an experiment that probably started a couple of years ago and I didn't question as much whether that role or remit was right for what I felt my ambition or kind of vision for what I could do was. I'm bit more selective now in that everything I do kind of tries to build into what I'm trying to achieve as a whole. So I don't see them necessarily as separate roles. They're just different ways to learn how you might voice, you know particular opinion, how you might learn how others think about problem, often for very similar if not the same cause, just seen from different scales and different perspectives. So I don't necessarily see them as very different roles just different places where my role could be exercised slightly differently, if that makes sense.
Ruth
That's a really interesting way of thinking with it isn't it? So it's all linked to having the same kind of impact and purpose that you want to have, just from a slightly different position.
Sonja
Yes, although I've come to that realization quite recently. It's not like I had all this sort of worked out or sorted out but, you know, I came to relatively recently where I started to realize that intuitively I probably felt there were links but I'm starting to be much more aware of how to make use of those links and also help to connect people between these different organizations where I do see clear links and where people would have never have come across each other, necessarily, without those links being made.
Ruth
Now, academia is one of those worlds that can, and I underline that word can be quite male dominated. You're obviously also talking about where that meets with construction and lots of other environments that are also quite male dominated normally. How has being a woman in that world impacted your career and how you approach things?
Sonja
I mean I've thought about this a lot. I've I'm in lots of different groups that are about empowering women in the whole, whole host of different sectors and I get asked this question a lot, and I really struggled to answer because I went into the construction industry maybe naively not feeling that I was in any way different or that I may be treated differently. It certainly didn't come through in my education that this was in any way a potential challenge that I would encounter, and so I don't think I had awareness of it until I would have been in the boardroom and I started to notice that a lot of decisions and this was early on in my career in industry, were being made in the golf course or at the dinner at various, you know dinners that I wasn't part of that world at all. Certainly when I was a mum I didn't have time to go and play golf. Golf wasn't really part of my interest either and I didn't certainly have time to go out for dinners, drinks, etc, in that kind of circle. And so I felt very much, and this was you know a good 20 years ago now and I think things have changed to some extent in some sectors. That's when I became aware decisions are being made that I can't participate in or I haven't quite found a way to participate in, and that's where I kind of had to think quite carefully how can I contribute to this, these decisions and this kind of decision making in a meaningful way, and build links and connections and networks in ways that were possible in the kind of life and lifestyle that I was living which wasn't about golf or dinner and kind of going out and you know in ways that I wasn't able to as a mum.
And this is where some of the portfolio working started actually making links and networks to build relationships that I had realized I hadn't had coming into industry which some of my male counterparts did have, connections, links, networks, you know through golf, through you know other routes that I just wasn't even aware of. And that's helped me a lot in terms of contributing to decision making at the board table, and I don't know if that answers kind of, I find myself in in in positions where I felt maybe slightly marginalized or my voice wasn't heard in quite the way I thought it could be, and I still struggle with some of those challenges and it's not just myself, I see it with some of my colleagues, where your voice and opinion which maybe isn't being heard in the way you'd like it to be heard and that could come from lots of different reasons because we might be using different kinds of languages, might be expressing ourselves slightly differently and so what I've found has started to work more recently is saying the same thing in many, many different ways. And really you know trying hard to communicate and sort of not taking a no for an answer, and sort of trying to see if that my messaging can be improved or diversified so that what I'm trying to say can be understood in the ways I'm hoping it can be. And that was probably my biggest struggle throughout my career. I'm not sure if it's a gender specific struggle, but I definitely speak to lots of women who have exactly the same struggles.
Ruth
Yeah, it's what I hear a lot.
Sonja
Yes, so I think, I can't say that I was aware maybe naively so that I would have certain struggles that I experienced as a woman in construction that I think are still experienced by many women. Certainly when I went on maternity leave I think it was said in in fairly open terms that I couldn't hold my senior role at the time because I'd be working part time and I was a mum. I mean this was, and at the time I mean I was, I mean this was in early 2000’s, I didn't question that. I didn't even think there was anything particularly odd about that, everyone accepted well that's just what happens. And so I regret a little bit not having the awareness of knowing how to question, how to push back on some of what had been said to me that I have now. And I think podcasts like this, conversations like this, had I had them at that time I would have probably had the awareness to know how to deal with some of those situations, absolutely, very little conversation, even amongst your own peers, to know well actually I've heard this or this had been said to me and not quite sure how to deal with this. You just, well I did, just accept it which you know would, I would never do at this point in my life, ever.
Ruth
So anybody listening right now, if that's being said, don't accept it. These days it’s probably illegal.
Sonja
I don't know that it would be said, certainly openly, in any way, in you know into today's terms, maybe implicitly but certainly explicitly, I don't think that would have ever been said. So I think you know that has changed and I think a big part of that change is conversations like this that have raised awareness and you know provided people with you know maybe skills or opportunities or thinking of how they might deal with certain situations that come to them you know that they hadn't anticipated or they don't quite know how to deal with in the workplace but elsewhere as well.
Ruth
Yeah, yeah, it, it does still happen but it's maybe more obvious I think when it does now as well because it's kind of a lot less acceptable as a result of some of the work that's obviously been done. But I'm really fascinated by the way you describe it's such a multi pronged approach that you've taken, you know from that sense of exclusion through place and when those that the places that these these conversations were happening, not being in those places doing those activities for valid reasons has led to, you know coming at it from a perspective of okay, where else can I be involved so that I can be a voice at the table? Okay, my message isn't coming across so I'm going to have to say in all these different ways to find some, some way of getting it to land and really sink in and I'm going to have to be really persistent about that in order that my voice is heard and that persistence can be quite exhausting.
Sonja
Yeah, and I mean absolutely, I think, but you learn how to nurture that within yourself as well and I think building you know strong friendships, you know good peer groups, you know helps remind yourself that you can do certain things and you can revisit them and I think my mum said this to me and my grandmother actually as well many, many times, it's not about what's right or wrong, it's about what has worked, and you can't keep saying the same thing if this doesn't have an effect, and it doesn't mean that you're right and someone else needs to see you're right, you're just not saying in a way that it's actually got any sort of effect. And so this idea of having an effect is something that had been passed on to me actually from quite a young age, and I was always quite righteous you know. I think six or seven or so and so did this, that's not right and then nobody's hearing me and my mum would say, well you're not saying it in a way that it's being heard, it's not having any effect. You've got to say it differently. And I think this is something that is probably the biggest thing I've learned in my entire life that you know, luckily through family but I don't think it was ever mentioned in school or elsewhere, is you know the way that you communicate is, is really about the effect you have, and what sort of effect are you trying to have? And this idea of I'm right and someone else is wrong is sort of irrelevant, and I think it's the biggest lesson. And I mean again I didn't come to that realization until relatively recently despite the fact it's been passed on to me from a young age. You don't really realize certain things until you've experienced them probably lots of times, and I think that's why it's important to persevere, to revisit and to try again and not kind of give in or give up, because we all have huge value to add to every place, position, a possibility that we can, you know influence in any way and nobody should forget that.
Ruth
I think that is incredibly wonderful advice that you were given and I can see how potentially in you it's also opened up a way of thinking about different perspectives, a way of thinking around things without getting hung up maybe so much on the ego that we all have that kind of can really be protected, well I'm right about this as you said that righteousness that, that we can all kind of fall into at times and especially you know when we're in leadership roles and we're juggling lots of things and we're dealing with a lot of complexity, that sense of you know the stress that that can bring on us it's very easy to hook ourselves into kind of one way of thinking or being. What are some of the pitfalls that you see with that in the work that you do because you're obviously trying to think about society, the way it works, how that relates to the spaces that we all live and work in. You know you're thinking about things in a very multi-layered way. How does that impact on kind of our decision making and the way that we make decisions about these things?
Sonja
I mean it's really difficult to answer this question simply. I think over reliance on what we know is probably the biggest pitfall that we all kind of fall into. It's really difficult to rely on things we don't fully know. And so we've been relying on certain knowledge systems for a long time, certainly in western societies, I can mostly talk about what I know within in Northern Europe and Western society because there are other knowledge systems internationally that, you know decisions are made based on completely different ideas of what's valid or, or potentially what's true. And I think in Western society, we, we've relied a lot on known knowledge systems, scientific evidence, more recently data, data driven evidence as as a truth. And I don't dispute that knowledge, but I think there are other knowledge systems we need to tap into. Clearly an over reliance or dominance of that knowledge system has, has not helped us, and we can see that. We can see that in our ecosystem, we can see that in our health, but as a society we can see that in the younger generations coming through, that type of reliance on what we have known and what we know, I think is our greatest pitfall and we need to start relying on the little bits of knowledge we may not fully know yet that open up those other knowledge systems which might be non scientific, and that's very difficult to open up and have kind of frank discussion in in certainly academic circles, not all of them because they differ from discipline to discipline. So architecture is incredibly varied in terms of the knowledge systems that relies on design itself, you know it's increasingly evidence based and data driven, but as mostly, you know being learned through developing judgment, and you know working within you know your intuition. You know something that a lot of other disciplines don't draw on and we're slowly eroding those systems in design as we drive towards Net Zero, electrification, decarbonisation and there's been a lot of research done on this our trust of numbers, numeric evidence, and how we're starting to perhaps rely less on judgment, intuition and develop that skill set.
I think for me that's where the greatest pitfalls are and what I'm trying to constantly bring into conversation, and it's going back to those early days of multiple perspectives and what is effective in this context, is it reliance completely on, you know this type of evidence or is it about tapping into this other knowledge system, and how do we know what's relevant where and what to prioritize when? And I don't feel we've developed as a society those kinds of skills or knowledge yet, and I think we need to be open to it at least to understand what it might provide for us as we, you know navigate what is an increasingly complex world. I don't think reliance on those kind of no knowledge systems is going to help us navigate, and I think that's what I think academia can definitely offer to expand that skill set to nurture, you know, new systems if it's able to you know open up and actually utilize the kind of skill set it's got within it and other sectors as well it's not just academia. And I can't talk for all disciplines and all sectors, I don't have experience of all of them, so I can only draw on construction and design but I can talk a little bit about others that I've dipped into, but in most of them we're starting to think that data and data driven evidence, mostly numerical evidence, can be easily trusted or is trustworthy. Anything that's slightly more qualitative that is based on peer judgment or professional judgment is really difficult to navigate and to qualify or even evaluate and those kinds of assessment practices or processes we really haven't evolved societally in the last 50, even 100 years, we had them, we've lost them. I think this is what would help us moving forward, avoid the kind of pitfalls I mentioned.
Ruth
I think that is absolutely fascinating and you know, thinking about, it's interesting, so one of the things I often explore with clients, with individual leaders, it when they're stuck with something, they're kind of just in this place of stuckness, it's trying to help people kind of get out of always being in their logical brain, but in the way that they think about things because I think we tend to value that more than other ways of thinking and very often, you know there's other coaches, if they're listening will know this but there are lots of other ways that we can help people to think round that you know. Okay, so what is your brain telling you right now? What is your kind of logical kind of thought process about this thing? Okay, so if you kind of come out of that and you, you think about it just from a pure gut perspective, you know what's your body telling you that the right thing is to do here or the thing that might be possible is and you often you when you think around a different range of there's all sorts of ways you can, you can pull these things apart but there are so many different ways to come at it, you know what might this person think? What might that person think? What might they do to just break people out of this really binary, we can get ourselves into such binary ways of of of thinking and being and approaching things, and it's how do you in leadership roles where you're kind of sometimes making some really difficult decisions where it's really hard actually to see the right thing or the wrong thing to do you know, how do you start to kind of open yourself to up to other possibilities when sometimes the stakes can feel, you can feel quite exposed can't you sometimes when you're having to make quite a big call about something?
Sonja
Yeah absolutely. I mean I think understanding how to listen to your own different perspective voices, and knowing when to tap into that is really critical in those in our situations. And I've been caught up many times and I think making mistakes is really important to understand that it's part of everyone's journey. And owning up to a mistake as well and saying well look I got it wrong and I see this and I'm learning from it and I'm moving forward, i've only ever heard from leaders, that I don't like this word successful but they have succeeded in achieving the vision they set out to do with their peers, this kind of collective vision, and so to me that's successful. If someone has set out to achieve something they've succeeded in that whatever that might be, and they've recognized the mistakes they've made, the errors, the kind of wrong calls, and being open about it. I've really valued seeing that and learning that and I think if more people did that it would enable those who are you know in leadership positions to understand that this is not a weakness, and that this is valued by those around you that this is important to acknowledge, and that's what I think is important as part of that tapping into your different voices and different perspectives, whatever call you do make whatever that decision might be is following it and seeing what the effect is. It comes back to that effect, the effect of how I've communicated something, what's the effect of a decision and really hard to make decisions that have the intended long term effect because our everyday situations are changing all the time so I don't think this idea of deciding on something and not revisiting that or re or adapting that or changing that, I think that's, you know how we have to see things in most sectors nowadays because we're constantly in an evolving time. So I think if people approach those kinds of decisions with this is what it's going to do for now and this is what it might do in three or five years time but I'm going to keep revisiting that and that pressure might come off a bit as though this was the kind of be all and end all. You need to revisit a lot of what you do and recognize when it hasn't worked, and lots of things don't work, but you have to make decisions regardless.
Ruth
Yeah, that's true I guess, it's accepting upfront that you're making that decision with the information you have now that might change down the line and just planning that in that you're going to have to kind of come back and revisit. Thinking in terms of kind of individual careers now and learning to think in this broader way and deal with complexity and complex decision making, how do you think people can really start to open themselves up to other perspectives?
Sonja
I think there's, again it will vary depending on what you do and and what's open to you and what sector you're working in, or sectors or what you're willing to, you know explore or experiment. I think that's the first step you know, willing to explore and experiment, not quite knowing where a particular secondary or tertiary role may lead to, dipping into something that you feel might be interesting for you and that you might learn from but you may not know upfront that that might be the case, is really important again just instinctively doing a couple of things outside of your central role that would help you build in some additional voices or perspectives or links or connections to these other potential knowledge systems, I think would be really helpful for a lot of people. That might only be one thing. It might be part of what someone does already and they're not aware of it because they haven't thought about what it does for them and where they might go with it. And I think another kind of potential valuable route let's say, would be to listen to yourself more. I know that sounds really odd but I think we often listen to many people around us you know, and some of those voices are expectations, they're not something someone has said to you but this is kind of what's expected of me. This is what I'm trying to achieve or this is what someone else might think of what I'm trying to do, but actually ask yourself well, what do I think about this without all these other voices and actually spending some time to listen to your own voice in amongst all the noise because there's an I think ever more noise, and it's constantly changing, the terminology is changing, the voices are changing and it feels very busy. I mean I know when I remember when I started as an architect, as a practicing architect, it all seemed very simple in many respects. I don't think social media was used at that time and so the decisions of the day, you know were the scale seemed manageable, the scale of what you were doing at the time when I started out where about your project or your team whereas now the scale of what you're doing is much greater and the scale was greater then we just weren't aware of it, you know you know you were your scale was of you know if you were designing or building a building it was that street, it was that neighborhood, it was that city, but you weren't necessarily aware of that impact, whereas now I think there's an awareness that we're not tapping into all these different scales. I think for me scale is really important to keep in mind, what is your voice and listening to you mean to the scale of what's around you, what you can what you experience every day but also bits you don't experience which you might be impacting or affecting, and I just saw an image yesterday, which I, I can't remember in which article which I thought this is something I've thought about a lot and never really seen an image of it, a map of all the cabling underwater around the world that connects us, that makes these kinds of discussions possible, that is really vast. There's an entire world underwater of cabling that you know I think that type of scale of our decision making many don't think of a lot of what we're doing has an international ripple effect, has an effect not just on us as a species but other species as well, and some might think well no, my decision you know is mostly to do with my team and what they're doing. Think about what they're doing. Think about the effect they have. Think about their individual effect on the collective. I think this is something that I doubt many think of daily, because you're not asked to necessarily and I think you've asked yourself that it will help you build those voices, those perspectives, those other potential ways of knowing is understanding scale. We use that term a lot in architecture, everyone and everyone might understand it differently but I think that type of listening in, thinking about scale will help develop some of those inner voices that have been maybe silent because I think we all have them within us, we haven't used them.
Ruth
That’s so interesting and the ripples are definitely real you know, we all kind of have impact and you know what we see here and what we're talking about now will be listened to, now listened to in 40 countries around the world. Will be will be listened to elsewhere and other people will start to think about it and things do move and change as a result of these small things sometimes when we can amplify a little bit. Just to wrap us up and thinking about kind of everything we've talked about, what's the one piece of advice you would give to a woman coming into a leadership role now?
Sonja
Trust yourself. I think we don't, and not just listen to yourself but kind of trust yourself. You have a huge amount to offer, and it's so easy to question anything or anyone and certainly even easier to criticize. And so often you're at times questioning can I trust what I'm doing? Is this the right way? Is this the right approach? I think it's important to trust yourself and in in those kinds of situations, you wouldn't be there otherwise, you know you haven't come to that point without the kind of challenges you’ve faced. You’ve faced many, many challenges, some of them are not on your CV, and they you know, giving you huge amount of experience and expertise and skill you haven't even realized yet. And I think that's probably, you know my, I don't think I was ever given that advice actually, and I, and I think I never sought advice and that's another thing that I would definitely say, seek advice, don't always listen to it, you know just see what other people see. I think throughout my career I didn't always seek advice, and I think it's, it's good to hear what others think and don't, you can filter lots of things out, somewhere in there there might be something you haven't thought about that's really useful. And we don't seek advice in leadership positions always because you're kind of expected to know a lot, and I think I always seek advice now, I think whether even if I'm 100% sure about something, I'll say what do you think about this? And I think often it won't be what I think about and I might not listen to it but that would give me a perspective on how someone else sees a problem or a challenge or a solution, and therefore how I might need to adapt my messaging or communication, not necessarily to change my decision, and so I think that's always helpful to keep in mind.
Ruth
There's always something to learn. Never stop. Never stop.
Sonja
No, absolutely.
Ruth
Sonja thank you so much for your time today. There's so much richness in this conversation at so many different levels, you know from personal right through to the the big stuff which is kind of obviously the point. Thank you for sharing your experiences and your your knowledge and your wisdom with us today. I know that people will find that really helpful.
Sonja
Thank you so much for a lovely conversation and hope you enjoy some sunshine as well.
Ruth
Fingers crossed.
Ruth
Loads of things to take away from that conversation there with Sonja. For me that sense of listening to yourself more really stood out. It is a noisy world. There are a lot of opinions out there. Some of them are quite binary and combative, but there's a lot of places to hear other people and you know whether that's social media, listen to podcasts, watching TV, we have so many different mediums for people to express their opinions and thinking as well as you know the whole data driven thing, but sometimes we still need to tune into ourselves in order to kind of find that judgment and find out what we really think as opposed to just parroting what algorithms are kind of throwing at us now.
I loved Sonja's advice around kind of really trying to take on some extra things outside of the day job that will widen your perspective and coming at it from that point of view of it's not just necessarily about taking on extra in order to be more visible in your career but also so that you are equipped longer term to make better decisions and to steer the ship if you like through your leadership in in a better way, in a more informed way, drawing on different types of information and different types of knowledge. And finally I love that idea of thinking about the scale. So first of all that effect that Sonja talked about, what effect are you having in the decisions that you make? What effect will it have on individuals, on the team and then going wider out into the world you know, what are the ramifications of what you're deciding? What are the potential, at least, ripples that you you create and coming back to those decisions regularly because, you know there's so much complexity now in the way that things interact, you know once we've done something, made a decision, set a direction, we can't always predict, it's not always known exactly how things will interact to kind of achieve an outcome, and so being prepared to shift and change and check in with these decisions regularly again so that we can kind of stay on top of it and so that we can keep a hold of those those decisions and keep them going in the right way.
I loved having that conversation with Sonja and I'm really grateful she took time out to come and speak to us today. I hope you've enjoyed it. If you've got any questions or any thoughts about kind of what we talked about, any kind of big decisions that you're kind of struggling with because maybe you're only getting a single perspective, if you've got any big decisions that you're grappling with a little bit and you'd like a bit of a steer on how you might think about them differently, I'm sure Sonja wouldn't mind if you reached out to her. I'll put our LinkedIn details in the show notes. Do connect and likewise feel free to ping me a message. I'd love to know what you think. Take care.
Thanks for listening to this episode of Frustrated and Exhausted. Hit the follow button for future episodes. You can also follow me on Instagram at Resonate Leadership and LinkedIn at Ruth Alexandra Wood, I'd absolutely love to hear from you. Frustrated and Exhausted is brought to you by Resonate Leadership and the wonderful team at the Podcast Boutique. I'm your host, Ruth Wood. Take care and speak to you soon.
