27 · Embracing Your Weird
Podcast show notes
Welcome to our next episode, Embracing Your Weird!
In this episode, we dive into celebrating the quirks that make each of us unique with our delightful guest, Rebecca McLean.
With her vibrant background from Dundee to Devon and her passion for environmentalism, Becky shares how embracing our true selves is not just liberating but essential for personal and professional growth.
Whether you’re in a career transition, reflecting on your identity, or just in need of a good laugh about life’s oddities, this conversation promises insights and inspiration.
Join us as we explore the beauty of being unapologetically ourselves - weirdness and all!
Here are the highlights
(4:15) Embracing individuality and making decisions
(11:15) Coping with life's highs and lows
(15:42) Leadership challenges and self-awareness in a male-dominated industry
(27:18) Career aspirations, self-expression, and demanding opportunities
(33:08) Gender inequality in the workplace
(39:58) Career development, your weird and relationships
Links
Connect with Rebecca via LinkedIn HERE
Connect with Ruth
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Ruth Wood: Welcome to Frustrated and Exhausted the podcast for women in leadership, where I help you fulfil your ambitions without sacrificing your sanity, or your resilience.
Today on Frustrated and Exhausted, I'm joined by Rebecca McLean. Becky is Head of Sustainability, Energy, Water and the Environment at SWECO. She's also a trustee at the Green Action Trust and a board member at Melville Housing Association. She's a passionate environmentalist. She believes strongly in equity and equality for everyone. And she's also a lot of fun. This is a great conversation. So come and join us today.
I'm absolutely delighted to have Becky McLean here with me. Thanks for joining me today, Becky.
Becky McLean: Hi Ruth. I'm really pleased to be here. Thanks for inviting me along
Ruth: Good stuff. So, we obviously had a previous conversation before this. And we had a little bit of a chat about what we were going to talk about. And we decided to kind of focus on Embracing Your Weird as you put it, and I loved that phase so much. I was like, Yeah, let's do that. So that's kind of what the conversation is really going to focus on today. But before we can get stuck right into that, tell me a little bit about kind of where you grew up, and how that influenced who you are now.
Becky: Thanks, Ruth. I grew up in Dundee in the 80s was born in 81. And Dundee is a really interesting setting. It's obviously a bit of a Phoenix out of the ashes nowadays with the new waterfront, but it's still a city with quite significant challenges. And when I was growing up, the biggest feeling that I always got from Dundee either was and I don't know if all the listeners will know this, but cosy, it’s a cosy city. And, you know, for all the sides of it, everyone seems to know everybody. My dad was from Dundee. I had family there, but my mum was actually from Devon. And that meant that we had quite an interesting family dynamic because we would spend our summers in Devon with our nan and granddad then. They are not big, our family. They've been there too. And it gave us a real... I suppose it broadened our horizons in terms of there's this huge world out there. And my mum loved going on holidays, we didn't have a lot of money, but she prioritised holidays. And she'd worked as like a chamber nurse in Greece. Before the internet, I don't even know how she found these holidays. But she would take us to these Greek islands for two weeks, and drive around on motorbikes and all this amazing stuff. But it made me always feel that Dundee was this amazing world to kind of live in, I suppose. And there's always been lots of arts and culture in Dundee, but also the realisation that there’s a huge, huge, huge big world out there where, you know, you had to go and explore it and see some amazing things.
My mum was an environmentalist, and she actually was the leader of Dundee City Council. Okay, when I was a teenager, and my brother and I used to slack off quite a lot, because for a number of years, she was the convener of waste, which we thought was a brilliant title. So she recycled before there was recycling bins. She was part of the initiative that brought the Schaefer wheelie bins over to Scotland actually. And we used to get our food delivered from this organic farm in Fife, and there was only really a handful in Scotland. So I suppose that was a very natural thing as I was growing up to really be aware of your environment. And my granddad in Devon was actually from Ireland, we've got quite a, an interesting family makeup, but he used to take us on this huge boat, and was constantly telling us about the nature and animals and how important everything was. So, I suppose it all kind of fed into the career that I am in now that it just felt that that's natural that, you know, the world supports us and we should support that perhaps.
Ruth: For sure. I mean, obviously, you could have your mum had that background and you've picked that up from other family members and everything is well. Did you ever have any sort of doubts that that was the direction that you were you were headed in?
Becky: Absolutely. And I think this really embraces that embrace your weird scenario. So, when I was at school, and they were saying what topics would you like to pick to do your standard grades were called at the time and highers. And I think fundamentally, this is where we tell our kids like you have to pick something you have to be a certain someone. But we're not a certain someone. I wake up one day and I want to be really glamorous and I want to have a really fancy dress on and have all my makeup done. And the next day I might wake up and I want to have my hair slicked back and have tracky bottoms on. And I want to go and get muddy and go walking around woods. And it really depends how I'm feeling that day. And I think when I was going through education, it was very much about finding what you could do as a job. Like we had to pick one thing. But then instead, my parents had always encouraged me just to pick topics and subjects that you really enjoyed, which meant that I ended up with a real interest in back, you know, biology, but music, I also loved religious education, I was fascinated by different cultures and societies. I did maths and English because we all had to do those. But it meant when I went to the advisor, they were like, I've got no idea what you can do with it. So, if I'm totally honest, I just adopted that throughout school, I studied the stuff that I found really interesting. And then I picked the university degree because I like the sound of the field trips that you've got to go on. It's amazing what your priorities were, that's those early kind of adventures that it was, it was all it was all about the adventures. It was, you got to instead of doing your exams in second year, you've got to go and live in Holland for three months. I thought that sounded like right waste. And then we've got to go to Malta to do an EIA at some point. So, I would love to see that. I felt like I had some deeper calling to the world. And that's my event.
But I think I suppose going back to the embracing your weird, I suppose I just I was allowed through my upbringing to embrace what I enjoyed. And then it's led me into a career that I love. So, I suppose trusting the process is part of that, isn't it? But I mean, I'm sure there was plenty of times mum and dad thought, who knows where she's gonna end up with this or make of this stuff?
Yeah, I must admit, I'm pretty confident my parents, some of the time, although I did listen to them, unfortunately. And I didn’t do physics, I begged, I really shouldn't have done physics. My brain just doesn't work like that. I think I went to speak to the physics teacher, and he was like, as much as like, Becks, I don't think this is for you. I'm glad we agreed!
Ruth: That's quite reassuring. Fantastic. All right. So you've headed off to uni. You're there. What kind of comes next for you. So what was your next kind of decision point in terms of career?
Becky: So when I left university, like many uni students, there wasn't really a clear path for me, I'd done my undergrad. I couldn't afford to stay on at uni. And to be honest, I'd got to the point where I no longer wanted to put my energy and effort into studies and reports that sat on a on a shelf. I was ready to go and do something. So when I left, I was working in Costa and I had met my now husband at the time. And we agreed, whoever got the first job would move. Whatever it was, we were just up and go. So, I sent out 50 CVS letters, nothing, not a sniff. And then there a head hunter person from a consultancy down in London phoned Dundee University and spoke to my head lecturer, and said, “Do you have a student that you'd recommend for a job in London, and he gave her my mobile number. So, this consultancy, rang me on the Tuesday, I was in London for interview on the Thursday, and I moved to London by the following Tuesday. That's having never ever lived in London before. And we stayed with my mum's friend who is in the music industry and she signs bands. And we stayed in this beautiful house in Camden. But we literally had two bags between us. And we knew there was some distant family that lived in London, who we then met and were absolutely lovely. So again, I suppose it was kind of embraced and well, what's the worst that can happen?
And I suppose there's been quite a few decisions in my life. And what my mum and dad and my wider family have always said is what's the worst that happens? You just come home, you come home, you hide under your duvet for a bit, you dust yourself off, you think “Well, that was intresting” and you move on to the next thing, and it takes any fear out of it. You know, decisions are really hard. Decisions are always really hard. But you just have to make a decision for now. It doesn't have to be decision forever. It just has to be for now. And I think if you learn to embrace your weird, you learn to trust your gut. Nine times ten your gut is right I think. I mean, imagine if you look back on some of your decisions, some of them will have been huge. And you'll have made them instantly. And some of them like, what am I going to have for tea tonight and you've spent three hours on it.
Ruth: Yeah, well, my kids come home at like, whatever time and the first question is what is for tea? What, though don't have a clue? Yeah, definitely. I mean, I am a big one for gut decisions, I must admit, I do always kind of do a bit of a head check. Like, am I being ridiculous here? Or, or is this telling me the right thing? But everything from going to work overseas for the first time, and ditching what my mum kept going on about was a pretty good job to do it, to getting married, to kids, to everything. It's been a gut decision that this is the right path for me. And I think like, you see, I was a bit different from you, but my thing is always, I'll never be less than I am now. No matter what, I will never be less than I am now. I've got these skills, I've got this experience. And anything else I do, is only going to make me more.
Becky: Yes. And people can't take those away from you. So even if you try things, and they don't go well, because things don't always go well to the end. And I think learning to live with life's highs and lows, and knowing that there are highs and lows, and you know, the sun will always rise and all that, you know, all the great stuff that that you can read about is really, really important, because I think it also allows you to really enjoy the highs and to ride out the lows. Because they will come and there will be tough times. But knowing how you can survive those, but also knowing that you're still building yourself, like it's okay to be beautifully broken. And, you know, to have all these different experiences, because they will all lend to making you a more rounded, a stronger person in the future as well. Not to be scared about it, but what do you think the biggest lesson is that you've learned from the highs and the lows. You can't congratulate yourself too much, or beat yourself up too much. There's a huge amount of contributing factors to things that go on in the world, and how the world treats you or you get cheated. And whether that's to do with privilege, whether that's to do with right time, right place, a big bit of luck, luck that you've made yourself through hard work, you know, or whether sometimes life just smacks you in the face, and there's no rhyme or reason for it, really. And you have to be able to process that in your head.
So, I've just come back to work after being off getting a hip replacement in January. And I found myself like over the weekend just sitting staring into space. And when my mum and dad both passed away when I was in my 30s. And I was in that kind of depths of grief, I would find myself kind of just been sat here for half an hour. And I've realised that the way my brain processes, things that I'm either going through or transitional phases is that I stayed off into space and almost am doing nothing but my mind is probably processing things. So, it's giving yourself the allowance to do that. And also taking time to learn how you process these things. You know, whether that she'd been up about or gone to counselling, I think counselling's the most amazing thing that people do. But you know, finding the solutions for yourself, because everyone is so different as well.
Ruth: I think that's the thing. And I think some of the times when we start beating ourselves up, like more, it's when we feel like there's a right way or a wrong way to deal with some of the tough stuff that can it comes out as in life. And actually, it's just a way of making it through. You know, we will get to the other side. But you've just got to find your own way of kind of getting there, haven't you?
Becky: Yeah. And the big thing that my dad taught me when my dad passed away, was when things are tough. It's okay to shrink right back in. And literally your decisions are like, am I gonna have a cup of tea? And the next day, what am I gonna wash two hours after that, you know, it was like, it comes down to that. And when you're, when you're ready, and you're dealing with things that will start opening out again, and you'll be able to accept more people back and rebuild and you'll be able to deal with, you know, bigger decisions and, and everything else but knowing that knowing that the world doesn't want to just be on the up all the time I think is really important and I don't think we talk about it enough sometimes with people as they're grown up.
And you know, grief is a massive part of life, you're gonna lose everybody that you love. awful thing to see. But my man sat me down when I was 16 and told me and then talked me through in a way that was a part of life and how to deal with it. And, and you know that grief is very natural. But also, it's a big part of it's because you love people so much. And that actually is a huge privilege. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's kind of framing all of these things. But I think knowing your own self and knowing when you need to draw back and knowing when you don't feel throttle, and you know, you can take on the world. I think that's brilliant.
And being a woman as well as recognising how much your menstrual cycle has to do with all of these things thrown in. You know, hormones are something joy, whatever the other word, yeah, who Yeah, there's definitely other words for us for sure. But it's, it's true, in the West that, you know, we can, you can go through puberty, and you go through the set phases, but it isn’t actually once a month, isn't it for the vast majority. I was told the lie in the 90s that like your period for one week of a month, and I've now realised that, you know, like, week, one year on, week two, you would really like everyone to go away and leave you alone. And there's certain days and weeks and months, and if you track them, and you understand them. And I think this goes exactly what we're talking about, if you if you take time to understand how your body operates in these things, you can be a lot more kinder to it, and work in the rhythm of it, if you like.
Ruth: it's funny, isn't it, because sometimes we think about these things as being separate, you know, our mind and our life as being separate from our bodies. And yet, actually, if you think about that much more holistically, you understand yourself on a whole different level, all different level.
Becky: And if no one's ever done, you know, the psychometric test, and it's called, Insights, I'm sure there's lots of other ones as well, but they give you the colours. We went through that process as part of a big project team for the CrossTie link road. And it was fascinating. At the end, they said, has this given you a lot more understanding about yourself and others that you work with, and I had to admit that it had, but it also had given me huge insight into my daughter. Yes. And our relationship has been so much better.
Ruth: A trainer that I worked with, who was one of my trainers when I was learning to coach and she said, and it was somebody had passed it on to her, but “you can only meet other people, as far as you've met yourself”. So the more than you understand who you are, and how you are in the world, the more that you can understand other people, their perspectives and experiences and be open to that. And I've kind of remind myself of that a lot, because I think it's really powerful and true.
Becky: Yeah, I totally think so. And that self-awareness of how you impact upon people, the things that you can see, but also your body language towards people and, you know, the influence that you may or may not have, or how you could or could not kind of influence change or decision making, I think is huge. I think it's, I think it's really, really powerful.
Ruth: Yeah, definitely. So, thinking about you in your leadership role now. Or what do you think the biggest challenge is that you sort of face as a leader in your industry.
Becky: I think working in a kind of predominantly male led environment, there's a lot of women and amazing women in engineering and sustainability in the environment. But we're still quite a way off in the UK. In other more Nordic countries, like for Sweco. I think in the leadership team in Sweden, there's more females than males, or it's pretty much you know, 50/50. And they, they find it strange when we talk to them about gender equity. It's just a cultural, it's not a thing for them. But in the UK, we're still kind of catching up, I suppose, in terms of that leadership side of things.
And I think what I've learned as I've gone through, is when I first started in consultancy, my mum had said or you might want to just dress a bit more like low key, like a bit less colour, don't wear as much makeup and I wasn't up for playing that game. Because I feel like we have a real responsibility to the women, the women that have gone before us almost in their honour, but also the women that are coming up behind us as well that they can see that you can be whoever you want to be and you can still you know you can still progress. You can work part time and be a director. You can have a balance between your family and your kids and everything else. That's not to say you're always going amazingly well. But you know that they shouldn't think that any of these barriers means that it's a no for them. And it's about their choice. It's up to them to choose what works best for them and their family. And there aren't barriers. But I think you have to be aware of politics, and you have to be aware of how you're perceived. And that's not necessarily not being you. But it's learning when you can have the greatest impact. And there are times when you might want to say, Hang on a minute, I don't agree with that. But that's maybe not the right point. That's maybe when your voice might not be heard as much. And then also being an ally to other women.
So I'm sure it was your podcast, when you were talking about the fact that women get shushed more than men, or unless, everyone, you're in a meeting, and you come up with an idea. And the guy beside you, basically says what you've said, Generally, in terms of, in my experience, it's to agree with you. So you know, they are supporting you. But then everyone seems to just immediately think that was their idea. And I think having a little bit of a voice, but unable to do it in a kind of jokey manner of like, well, that's great. You agree with me, I've been thinking about that for weeks, or that's brilliant that we've all agreed was my idea, you know, you can, you can make it, you can make the point without putting everyone's backs up. So it's being able to be yourself. But you have to be aware of politics, there's politics everywhere, even in your friendship groups, there'll be politics and your family, you know, and business is no different. And it's learning how to make the most of those, really, to your own advantage, I think,
Ruth: Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think one of the ways in which, you know, people have been talking for quite a lot of years now about authenticity at work, and being yourself and all the rest of it. But if we're all fully ourselves all the time, that's not going to be a good thing either. Because, you know, we all have our good points, and some are difficult points, and other people are the same. So, I kind of often in my head, think of it as like a bit of a graphic equaliser. It's knowing what to dial up when and what to dial down, as you say, for the greatest impact, to move, what you want to move forward in the best possible way. And there are obviously more challenges for women around that for the reasons that we've just mentioned.
Becky: And that are, but what I would say, for the majority of women that I know, one of their biggest superpowers, as reading a room, far greater than most males. Instinctively, and I don't know whether this is animalistic, or women had to read, you know, the plains to work out whether they could protect the babies or not, I don't know. But generally, I find most women are very self-aware and can read a room. And don't be afraid to use that, you know, I think dial into that element of yourself. That means that you probably can understand exactly how things are playing out and use that to your advantage. And I think that's something that, you know, those softer skills, that men and women have an abundance, but I think I think it's something that we can use to help to our own advantage. Yeah. And in our hard world, where, you know, we're working in sectors that maybe be more predominantly men.
I've noticed over the last five years, that the value placed on those softer skills has grown and grown and grown. So, get to show them I think.
Ruth: One of the things that have written a lot at the moment about AI and how that's going to impact and all the rest of it. And what a lot of people are saying is that at the moment, what AI can't do is emotional intelligence. Not at this point anyway. What about the future don't believe but and actually, if those are skills that that you have, it's a total selling point, because it’s what companies are recruiting for, and more and more now, as well. So being proud of those skills, and they're the hardest to learn as well. Yeah, that's the thing. We call them soft skills, but they are the hardest to learn. So yeah, really playing those up is great.
We've talked about strengths and superpowers and embracing kind of who you are. What's your greatest strength?
Becky: My fascination of people I think, when I speak to people about my work, and I think I get a generally get a feeling that the main thing is that I have quite a lot of fun. Yeah, and that doesn't sound you know, well, that's not very technical expertise or I think you can achieve a lot when you're having fun. And you can actually a big part of being a sustainability expert. I don't need to be an expert in net zero or carbon or you know what components of concrete we need to tweak or change. But I need to be able to sell people a vision and get them on board with trying to do things better, and trying to achieve a better world for everybody. And to be able to get people on board, I think you need to be able to, to connect with them on some kind of level, and then also be able to tell them stories. So I think fun and storytelling, if I'm, if I'm totally and utterly honest, I think that's, that's the kind of key things that I've used as I've gone through my career. And it's allowed me to build really strong relationships with people, my colleagues, my clients, you know, my network, my peers, and then also then allows me to have more difficult conversations, more technical conversations, fun conversations, but it builds up that trust as well.
Ruth: If that's not a description of leadership, I don't quite know what it is. I mean, you kind of use all the keywords, maybe not, you don't often hear fun, but it for creating connection, for building relationships, and for building trust, you know, when you can have fun with somebody and connect in that that's a more playful side of things. It allows those hard conversations that allows honesty when things are tough.
Becky: Psychological safety, isn't it? Yeah, you know, you've got that depth of relationship. And, and we are at work a lot of our life. So, if it's not fun, what is the point, frankly? So, I think I think there's a huge amount of that for me and kind of progressing through your career, I suppose. There's been questions in my head, like, should I do let them? Do I need to be more serious? And I think I've tried for approximately about an hour. And it's just never worked. I think that's probably when people can read between the lines. This isn't you, it just doesn't work. And I'm thinking so much about not being you know, who I really am. So you end up being weird.
So, and I think as well, if your yourself and if you're working somewhere and that isn't working out, you know that that place isn't for you either, like, and that's okay. You know, it has to be a two way street. And if it's not the right place for you, well, you go find your tribe somewhere else. And you know, they can have a lovely time somewhere else. Life's too short, to be miserable. Yeah. And there's so many amazing things in life, that if you're miserable, you'll mess them up. Yes. So, I think I would just say people, find the fun in everything. Like you don't have enough money to go out to eat a big fancy dinner, well, put the candles on wear your best clothes, put on that beautiful dress you bought last summer that still fit you but you know you've not had an opportunity to weather or whatever, get the candles on for your beans on toast, maybe crack open a little bottle of Prosecco. From some, you know, life doesn't have to be really expensive or grand or, or, you know, trips to the Balmoral or anything to make it fun. You can make fun anywhere, you add it in any job you do. In any circumstance you've got. But you have to work at it sometimes. And, but it's always worth it.
Ruth: A client once called working with me as being serious fun. Serious, because we're serious about what we're doing. But fun because we laughed our heads off regularly. And it's one of those things if you're thinking about relationships and connection and moving forward and trusting. What else brings that?
Becky: I think that is the best, I'm going to I'm going to use that, serious fun, because I suppose from my perspective, I'm so passionate about is creating a better world for everybody that is, in terms of why I do what I do. You know, as much as when you work in corporate work commercial businesses, we have to make money. But from my perspective, the reason I get up every morning and go and do what I do is like the opportunity to make a difference in this world to help people. And sometimes you look around and it's easy to look at all these amazing award ceremonies and think I haven't really got any of these fancy awards and in but I think from my perspective, if I have helped train people up who are now some of my graduates that I've had throughout my time are now doing the most amazing things out in the world and they are the most and always have been the most amazing people. And I've really loved working with them. Like, that's enough, you know, and if I bring my kids up to be good citizens of the world that care and look after other people, like, that's good, that's where we need to be. And if I treat everyone nicely and kindly, and you know, I'm there for people, then I think that's a word enough if that makes any sense. It makes lots of sense.
Ruth: And what a fantastic definition of success, that’s your personal definition of success.
Becky: That is, I think, knowing that sometimes takes a while. Yeah, certainly takes a while to articulate at times. But yeah, yeah.
Ruth: What advice do you have for women now kind of either coming into the workplace, or kind of hitting that middle level, where they're starting to move into kind of management and more senior roles? What would you say to them now?
Becky: The first one is as much as you can be yourself. You don't have to be one particular person, you don't have to be one particular approach to things. So, some days, I can be exceptionally serious. Some days, I can't find an ounce of seriousness in my body, right? And that's fine. Go with go with the days as they flow, and just own it. You know, I always like to think to myself, “What would Beyonce do in this circumstance?” Generally, that leads me up about me show me
she wouldn't be accepted. You know, so like, whoever your idol is, whoever you're person is that you look up to most. Sometimes you won't feel that confident. Channel her.
Anyway, do you know what, because nobody, nobody will leave build to know so. But it's also okay to cry sometimes and feel vulnerable and be vulnerable to others. I'm quite an emotional person. And I find that if I try and hide them, it comes out the worst possible times. So. So embracing that emotion, if you're feeling worried, talk about it. It's that age old saying. You know, a problem shared is a problem halved but it also, it puts everything back in perspective.
But the other thing I would say as well as generally, and we've been doing a lot of looking at kind of gender pay gap and stuff at SWECO. And generally, women are a bit quieter about their career aspirations, and they don't tend to demand. So, for every women out there listening, demand. And I would sit and write yourself, even if it's one sentence, where do you want to be in five years time? How are you going to get there? This is your career. This is your opportunity. This is your life, you get one shot, ask? Just ask. Generally, people don't say no. But don't ever be scared to ask. And if you're in a place where you don't feel like your voice is heard, either make it be heard. Or maybe it's time to go somewhere else. Because you're hugely valuable. Every single person is hugely valuable for what they bring to any workplace and finding the right place for you. So you can have fun, surely important. But be in control of your own destiny. Don't wait for people to come and ask you if you want to be promoted. Don't sit there and think I'll do an amazing job. And then I'll be a leader one day, we're still having to push a bit, right? So keep pushing, keep our skin keep saying “Right. So where is my next step? Where's my next promotion? What is it that you need me to do?” And be aware of when your promotion cycles in any type of job. Be aware of when they are due? Right?
So, there is no point sitting waiting. Because this happened to me when I was a graduate. I smashed out the park my first year after a bit of a shaky start to be honest, but then smashed out of the park. So, I went into my first review and I was like, expecting to get a big pat on the back and apologise. And my boss absolutely loved at the time. She was like great, you've met all your targets. That's brilliant, fine. Thank you. And I said. “So don't I get promoted to consultant now?” And she was like, “Well, you haven't mentioned it and it's not in budget.” And we've just, you know, it's no in me or wherever and we don't do promotions till April. So you'll have to wait.”
It was the best learning experience ever. Because then I was like right. So, if I want promoted in April, it has to be in budget by when and she was like November. So I need to let her know what my aspirations were for the next year. So ask these questions: What is the you know the promotion cycle here? What is the way of getting things in promotion? How is it budgeted for? What is it that you need to do? And what is the evidence base? Now, you can ask all of that and just keep it in your back pocket until maybe you do want promoted. But be in charge of that. Because there is nothing more frustrating than thinking, I've done a great job and somebody's gonna, somebody's gonna notice. Because nine times out of 10 they're busy. Yeah, well, they're busy. And even if they notice that you're doing really well, I guess it depends how motivated they feel to push you forward and if they've got other people sort of championing them or asking them and pushing. And you're not then where's that attention, the focus gonna go? And it's one of those things, you know, this is why women generally?
Ruth: Well, there are many reasons why that women can’t get to the very top layer, but one of them and I've said this before, and I'm going to keep saying it, because I really hope it helps somebody out there. Yeah, take a decision earlier to go for a promotion earlier, because men will put their hand up every single time. And women wait until they think they've ticked all the boxes. And, you know, all the evidence, all the research is showing that when we miss out on that very first early promotion, that sets us back X number of years in terms of overall career. So it's having that early confidence to say “Yes, me!”.
Becky: That is such a good point, because I also think as well, we put too much onus on sometimes it's like, first promotion. So you go you go for an interview, right? Whether you get it or not. That's another big experience put in your back pocket. But you're so right, Ruth, it's basically what you've done is you've put a marker them to whoever, whoever the leaders are above you. I'm interested. I would like to move forward. And they will then look to you for future but they will also put you on that list of you know, if we don't actually foster this ambition, they might go. Yeah, so you're right, it sets the tone. And even if you're not feeling massively competent about it, just do your prep and do your best. What's the worst that happens?
Ruth: I love that question. I think if we all asked a question what's gonna happen, you know, generally, we can come up with horrible scenarios in our head. Doesn’t ever, doesn’t generally come true.
Becky: Yeah. Yeah. You know, and it's, it's the ones that you've never thought about that come true. And smack in the face on a, you know, a cold Tuesday morning, when you're not expecting it.
Ruth: Yeah, exactly. You know, so, I think so. That all kind of like, just go for it.
Becky: Yeah, I was gonna say I had a really interesting chat, one of my old friends from Dundee visited, his band was playing in Edinburgh, and we had gone to see and we were having a chat afterwards when he came home for a couple of beers. And he was like, yeah, this equality things gone a bit far hasn't it? It was really interesting, because it prompted quite a big discussion between us, right? And one of his comments was, there was two main things that we covered. One of his comments was, yeah, but we can't just be giving jobs to women, like because they're women. And I said, How many jobs? Do you think jobs have been given to people just because they are men in this country? And he said, I've never thought about it that way. No, our society has been built on that premise. And I'm not advocating for people getting jobs just for whatever. But for some reason, the way that's discussed as I was like, that's a real negative, where that's how our society has operated for hundreds of years. So having that discussion was really interesting with him. And then he also had this feeling that, you know, when we got into depths of areas, like, how was this negatively affecting you? What are you having to give up to make our society more equal? And the answer is nothing. And I said, because actually, the science has shown in a more equal society that everybody benefits. Women, men and children are much happier, are much more successful, like everybody, it brings everybody up. When there's an unequal society, it's the men that benefit and nobody else generally, you know, in the science, and it was, it was fascinating to having this discussion with him. And I, I love him to bits. But it's obviously there's a perception out there that, you know, this isn't really challenging the status quo. And part of me almost was glad to have the conversation. To discuss this with them in more detail. But I'm just conscious that that message needs to get out more that like, you know, people aren't having to give stuff up. This isn't like, you have to give your job back because you're a white male.
Ruth: Yeah. Yeah, I think this is I think people kind of see it as this really old school thinking kind of zero sum game. Like, if you get that, that means I can't have it. But you're absolutely right. I can't even remember where that research comes from. But I have read it. And it is. It's, it's pretty obvious when you stop and think about it. I think we just fall into these assumptions and patterns of thinking. And we all do it in different ways. But I love that kind of the way that you flip that, and I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall for that discussion.
Becky: There was quite a lot of rum. Progressed from the beerr onto the rum. Yes, that sounds about right. But you know, by the end of it, he was saying, ya know what? I see your point, Beck's. And I see your point. And I think, you know, that advice to women who are considering where they want to go for promotions, and also that it's absolutely fine. If they don't like, the beauty of equality is, that it should be all about choice. So don't either feel pressured and things that you don't want to do. But also, if you do feel that you want to progress to leadership, and you want to move and you want to, you know, you're ambitious, and you want to keep going up, just be aware that you probably need to put in some work yourself to plan that and ask the questions like, nobody's ever not going to tell you the answers to those kind of questions about promotions, and pay and everything else. And the other thing somebody once told me, particularly if you're a woman, and you're going for the leadership role, when they ask that question about what is your salary expectation? Never tell them! Say, what is your salary expectation for this role based on your market research? Because that also will help our gender pay gap issues, because women will probably undersell themselves? Yes. This history, history does suggest, you know, if they've been lower paid in the past, it just reinforces that. So I think that's the only things have fun, be yourself. And don't be scared to ask because worst thing happened, you go home, just like my mum said, You hide under your duvet. She said you weren't allowed the day one day and your duvet feeling sorry for yourself. And then you dust yourself off, you think great. What have you learned from that experience? You probably, if you're anything like me, you'll have found all your mates and it'll be decision by 3000 people, and then you go back out in the world.
Ruth: That is absolutely brilliant advice. I could have done with some of that probably when I was younger. Thank you so much, Becky, for a great conversation, I could keep going quite happily. Yeah, really appreciate it. And again, I'm sure people are gonna get a lot out of this. So thank you.
Becky: Loved chatting to you! It's felt like, I can't believe all that time has gone past already. So thank you so much for inviting me along. I've really, really enjoyed it.
Ruth: Pleasure.
Ruth: So many really important messages there from Becky, I think one of the biggest ones for me is that message around being yourself. Be yourself be who you are, but be smart about it. You know, use your emotional awareness and intelligence to read the room. So that you can have the impact you want to have, where and when you want to have it.
Another one is kind of that sense of really, knowing your worth, put your hand up for that promotion. Because even if you don't get it in the end, you've signaled to everyone around you that that's where you want to head. So, it's always worth doing and doing it early. You know, demand, I think was the word that Becky used, to demand, what you deserve. I think one of the biggest things for me from that conversation was that sense of fun, and using that to really connect with people. But also know that if you're not having fun in what you're doing, if you're not enjoying it, if you're not getting that sense of satisfaction from it, you can change it and being confident in that being prepared to take the decision to move rules, if it really isn't working for you. And that actually that's okay. It's not a reflection on you. Sometimes the fit just isn't there. But life's too short and fun is important.
I think the final point was really around, taking the time to know yourself. Knowing yourself fully, body, mind and soul, learning how you process emotion. Knowing what emotions can have, you really kind of come to the front for you at different points. And being honest with yourself at least about those and how you're feeling and having the courage sometimes to be vulnerable with other people. So that you can ask for support but also so that you can allow them to be vulnerable. All too. And again, that's another way of building relationships and meeting other people where they are and really connecting in an important way, in a way that changes you and them for the better.
Thank you so much for joining us today. I loved that conversation. I hope you did too. Drop me a DM if you'd like to chat more about kind of anything that that brought up for you or if you've got feedback. And again, feel free to reach out to Becky as well. I've popped her links in the show notes too. Take care. Have a great week.
Thanks for listening to this episode of Frustrated and Exhausted. Hit the Follow button for future episodes. You can also follow me on Instagram at Resonate Leadership and LinkedIn at Ruth Alexandra Wood. I would absolutely love to hear from you. Frustrated and Exhausted is brought to you by resonate leadership and the wonderful team at the Podcast Boutique. I'm your host, Ruth word. Take care and speak to you soon.
