52· THAT Boss
Podcast show notes
Ever felt stuck dealing with that boss—the one who’s not just tough but actually crosses into uncomfortable or even toxic territory?
In this episode of Frustrated and Exhausted, I’m tackling an uncomfortable but crucial topic, the female leader who, despite knowing the struggle herself, makes things difficult for other women.
We’ll unpack why this happens, from unresolved trauma to harsh work environments, and the roles we unconsciously play in workplace drama.
I’ll also walk you through what to do if you’re facing this kind of challenge, from documenting incidents to seeking support.
Remember, no one deserves to be bullied, and understanding what might be going on isn’t about excusing it, it’s about empowering you to take action and protect your well being.
Let’s face the tough stuff together and create healthier workspaces!
Here are the highlights
(02:15) Impact of Past Trauma on Current Behaviour
(05:00) Me Too
(08:40) Advice for Dealing with a Bullying Boss
(10:59) Acknowledging and Addressing Toxic Work Cultures
(12:20) Reaching Out
Get the Find Your Power audio-course HERE
Get the 5 Day Resilience Kickstarter
Connect with Ruth
-
Ruth
Welcome to Frustrated and Exhausted, the podcast for women in leadership, where I help you fulfill your ambitions without sacrificing your sanity or your resilience.
Hello, hello, hello. So you don't hear this week's topic talked about all that much other than maybe some grumbles in the office or some bit of mudslinging here and there, and I'll admit that as someone who is all about women, supporting women, it feels kind of uncomfortable to be raising this. But this topic has been requested by a listener and I've seen this happen in action and although I've not experienced it myself it is something that happens out there so we should talk about it and we should acknowledge it because otherwise we can't deal with it and we can't find ways past it.
We need to talk about that boss. The one who despite having been where you are now, despite the fact that she's also a woman, and despite that she's dealt with all the hard stuff that you still do is still making your life difficult. Possibly even bullying you a bit. The woman who doesn't support other women, who makes you uncomfortable and possibly makes other people uncomfortable too.
In today's episode I'm going to be talking about what could be going on for that woman, what could be going on in the relationship that you and other people will have with her and what to do about it. So first off what's going on? Before I get into anything else I want to say that there is never any excuse for workplace bullying, no matter what the circumstances, no matter what the person doing the bullying may have been through in their past, it is not excusable. And nothing that I'm about to say or explain changes that. Hurt people hurt people and most of us will carry some level of trauma from past experiences. You know, it's quite hard to kind of, you know it depends what age you are at I guess but it's quite hard to kind of get to middle age or whatever and not have been hurt in some way or experienced some kind of trauma in your life, and many of the women who have kind of reached senior levels at this point and before have had to fight tooth and nail to have a career, to be recognized and promoted and they will have been hurt in some way along the way.
Now that might be psychological hurt from years of rejection, from being undermined, maybe even humiliated, from being doubted, from being unheard. And you know that can obviously happen at different levels to different degrees depending on the environment that you're operating in, you know and it can put you in fight mode. Those responses that I talk about quite a bit, fight, flight, freeze, faun, those are the kind of responses that we have when we're in circumstances that are difficult or traumatizing to us in some way, shape or form. We all do it in different ways, like a sort of low level but when someone has experienced trauma, it, those responses are heightened. That's me talking about kind of some of the lighter end of what can happen and could have happened in someone's work environment, but it can also be from much darker sort of abuse. You're talking about sexual harassment that I've experienced in the workplace, rape, verbal and physical abuse extended over an extended period. Those things obviously do significant emotional and psychological damage to people. You know think about the words that I've just used, if they were in a domestic context we would be thinking about, why didn't the neighbors call the police or you know why didn't she get out earlier? And the same sort of relational issues apply, and the impact of that sort of behavior, of experiencing those sorts of things is no less if it's experienced at work than it is at home and it can be really traumatic.
I've experienced some of what's on that list and it's hard but years ago it some of it was almost expected which is so wrong but it was, and it has a lasting impact. I mean some of what I experienced I only really started to deal with a few years ago when the metoo movement came about and it sort of just really suddenly hit home that this is totally unacceptable and yet it was accepted some of it because it was what happened. Things have thankfully moved on in lots of work environments but not all, and there are still pockets of this unacceptable behavior around.
So you think about the women who've been in that position and you think about the fact that they have stuck with it, they've kind of been promoted, they've got themselves to quite senior levels, and then they're responsible for mentoring and managing and coaching more junior staff. Experiencing any of all of these things it doesn't necessarily turn somebody into a bully themselves but it can. I don't know if any of you have heard of the Drama Triangle which is a great theory that's used a lot in psychology, particular type of psychology called Transactional Analysis. It's a way of thinking about the roles that we play in relationships. And according to this theory there are three roles that we primarily play when we're in a drama kind of situation, and that's victim, persecutor or rescuer. And we will all have a tendency more or less to one of these. I'm a total rescuer. It's, it's quite common I think with coaches but that's kind of my, my take if there's a drama going on I want to fix everything. But depending on your experiences in life you'll have one or other of those roles that you tend to turn to and it is quite common that when someone has been the victim of a persecutor, if they have been persecuted, if they have been in the victim role, they can stay in the victim role, they can work on themselves and choose to get out of the Drama Triangle altogether, or if they haven't had the opportunity to process their own experiences, they can become persecutors as well. Because what happens psychologically is that when we haven't actually dealt with and processed what we have been through we try to reenact them.
We try to reenact things in order that our brains can resolve them. And so that's why we get into sometimes repetitive behaviors and relationships. We kind of keep going for the guy that doesn't treat us very well or whatever it might be. And this is kind of what could be potentially going on with someone who is in that sort of position as a female leader and potentially not being supportive of other women in the workplace. There's a sort of a sense of well I've been through all of this, i've done the hard yard, why can't you? And that may not even be conscious.
Very often people who are in this sort of psychological kind of position may not realize that that's where they are. They may not even realize the extent to which they've been impacted by the experiences that they've had. What do you do about it if you're in a position where this is going on for you in the workplace and someone is treating you like that? I think the standard advice really on this sort of thing applies if you feel you are being bullied, and if the circumstances that you're in make it possible, get yourself to your HR department and report it. Document everything, keep emails, keep records of when things happen and you know maybe you're not in a big organization that has an HR department but if you're in a smaller business that doesn't have an HR department or you don't feel that you can trust said HR department, then as I said document everything and seek advice from either an external HR specialist, there are lots of them around, or an employment lawyer. Get yourself some proper advice and support.
The second thing is also the emotional support that you may need. Seek outside support from friends. You know I think sometimes even that reassurance that what you are experiencing isn't normal. When you work in a toxic environment, then toxic becomes your normal and what would be unacceptable in another place suddenly is sort of starts to feel acceptable. So checking in with people who do not work in that environment about what you're experiencing can really help you to kind of get some perspective. You may want to get support from a counselor or a coach and you might want to think out what, what your options are really. Are there options within the company to move into a different role out of that person's you know sort of remit? If the wider company culture is positive that might be an option you want to think about or do you need to move somewhere else altogether?
Like I said at the beginning this is uncomfortable to talk about but there are lots of traumatized people out there who have been through very difficult things, male and female, but it does not excuse them reenacting that trauma on other people in their remit. That sort of bullying and harassment just isn't acceptable either in the workplace or anywhere else and none of us deserve to sort of have to experience that.
I talked through sort of what might be going on for that person and just as not as an excuse but as a way of understanding that actually you know we talk about sexual discrimination, sexual harassment, and you know we talk about gender equity but actually the reality of what some people have had to go through in the workplace as a result of discrimination it can be traumatizing. It can have a lasting impact on them and their behaviors, and not everybody that who has been through that sort of thing will become a bully or start persecuting other people in, in that sort of way but some do and I think it's really important to acknowledge that because without that acknowledgement we sort of gloss over it and we talk about women supporting women and all the positive aspects of things but there are dark sides to this too and we can't look away from it.
If you recognize yourself in any of this, either you're experiencing it or potentially you recognize what I've said about the level of hurt that people can experience you know in, in organizations when it's been a really toxic environment, please seek support. Organizations should be doing something about these cultures, these toxic work cultures are doing untold damage to both companies and groups of people but individuals too.
If you'd like to talk about any of this or share your thoughts or experiences please do feel free to get in touch. You can email me, you can DM me on any of my socials and I'm more than happy to, to sort of give you some support.
Otherwise turn to your friends, get some proper employment lawyer advice, and, you know get the support that you need to take action to change the circumstances that you're in.
I hope that's been helpful. Take care.
Thanks for listening to this episode of Frustrated and Exhausted. Hit the follow button for future episodes. You can also follow me on Instagram at Resonate Leadership and LinkedIn at Ruth Alexandra Wood, I'd absolutely love to hear from you. Frustrated and Exhausted is brought to you by Resonate Leadership and the wonderful team at the Podcast Boutique. I'm your host Ruth Wood. Take care and speak to you soon.
