5 · Shattering stereotypes
Podcast show notes
In this episode of “Frustrated and Exhausted,” I chat with the inspiring Jenny Jenkin, a former university registrar turned leadership coach.
We dive into the challenging world of stereotypes women encounter in leadership, sharing Jenny’s own experiences of being underestimated in her career.
This conversation is a must-listen for anyone looking to break through barriers and find their voice in leadership roles!
Here are the highlights
(01:44) Gender stereotypes in leadership roles
(03:52) Stereotypes in the workplace and their impact on career advancement
(08:25) Dynamics in meetings
(20:16) Gender bias, career growth, and personal development
Links
Connect with Jenny
Connect with Ruth
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Ruth Wood 0:07
Welcome to Frustrated and Exhausted, the podcast for women in leadership, where I help you fulfil your ambitions without sacrificing your sanity or your resilience.
Ruth Wood 0:27
Today, I am delighted to be welcoming Jenny Jenkin, to Frustrated and Exhausted. Jenny has had a long, rich and varied career in UK universities both old and new. Most recently, she was Registrar at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. And earlier this year, she left organisational life and retrained as leadership coach, consultant and facilitator. Jenny has a passion like me for tackling gender and race equity. She has a real fascination for power and politics in large organisations. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. I know you'll enjoy it to sit back, relax, and enjoy.
It's a real pleasure to be here today with Jenny Jenkin. Welcome, Jenny. In this episode, we are going to be talking about the stereotypes that women can face as they move into and as they progress through leadership roles in organisations. Jenny, it's really great to have you here today. Thank you for coming on the show to share some of your experiences and knowledge around this topic. It's one we could probably talk about for hours. I know. But just to get us kicked off, what sort of stereotypes have you encountered sort of in the workplace?
Jenny Jenkin:
Gosh, well, I mean, I'm going back many years, Ruth, but I certainly in my early days, as a junior administrator in the university sector, I guess I encountered in ways that at the time, I didn't see a stereotypical, so I would be patronised by male bosses, but I didn't realise it because I thought I was being graced with their presence. And those early days when you're so keen to learn and eager to absorb knowledge, sometimes those subtle and frankly, not very subtle issues are quite invisible. And I think it's that invisible stereotyping that can be really problematic. I do recall, I think I was walking into the vice chancellor's office at a certain university to meet with the Deputy Vice Chancellor, I think it was around some very exciting committee agenda out and he asked if I was the new temp? And I said, “Well, no, actually, I'm here to brief you on the forthcoming agenda.” And he looked very abashed. And actually, I think sometimes it's the ability to help others to spot their own stereotyping. That is both the opportunity, and more often than not, in my case, the missed opportunity, because in the moment, you don't always quite get the right words at the right time. At that time, I did. And I'm sort of happy to say he never did it again.
Ruth Wood 3:08
Like you, I must admit, I kind of, I have kicked myself so many times over the years. For those missed opportunities. I definitely relate to that particular example because like you, I think, for me, it was more being assumed to be the note taker in the room, as opposed to somebody who was actually at the table to have the conversation with some points to make.
And I think that's something I'm sure a lot of people listening will relate to even know for sure. How do you see that sort of those sorts of behaviours and stereotypes impacting women in their careers?
Jenny Jenkin 3:46
Well, I think that the most pernicious impact is on our behaviours. So when we subtly absorb those stereotypes. We start to conform, we start to behave in ways that we perceive is expected of us this is normal because as human beings we tried to slot in, don't we, we tried to fit in with our friends and be part of a community can stand out. It's quite challenging, I think, to jump out of that. So confronting those stereotypes is difficult. And I think more commonly, we start to change our behaviours, we become a little bit more apologetic. We begin an email with, Oh, I'm sorry to raise this but, and instantly, we've got a slightly submissive sort of dimension. And I fall into this all the time, even now, I actually make a point of rereading emails and rewriting them 10 minutes later, because words matter. And the way that we used words to confront stereotypes really matters. So I think that it affects people's behaviour. And I think it affects confidence because we internalise some of this dissonance that's going on in our mind
“My gosh, they shouldn't treat us like this. Oh, but I better, you know, do the right thing. So that doesn't affect me in my career”. There are ripples to those sorts of behavioural shifts.
But I do recall another anecdote from a while back in my career when I saw a job opportunity, and it was a bit of a reach, quite frankly. But I was quite young. And at that point, I was reasonably fearless in thinking, Lord, I could I could do that job, or to my then male boss about this. And he very gently and very paternalistically said, “Well, do you think that if you applied for that job, generally, they might think you were lacking in self awareness”. And that was a bit about, and I've never forgotten that. That was, that was 20 years ago, I remember it as if it was yesterday. And that can affect you. And sometimes,
Ruth Wood 5:48
And sometimes, having those moments can shape the way that you go for other opportunities. And we know that women tend to make sure they meet every single detail the person spec, before they apply for the job in comparison to a male colleague, who will think you know, like, I can absolutely do that. And so we can self-limit.
I think it's really backed up in the research. I mean, there was a report this year from leanin.org. and McKinsey about that. And to be honest, this report they do every year, it's called Women in the Workplace if anybody wants to look it up. And it's shown year on year that the point in their careers where women fall behind in terms of production and promotion, it's not actually further up the chain, the majority of women fall behind at the very first rung in the ladder, that first promotion, that they're more hesitant about going for potentially or don't have the support to go for, and therefore hold back. And that has impacts further down the line, in terms of how early in your career, you might hit a certain point or expect to hit a certain point on that kind of upward trajectory.
So it's really interesting what you're saying, because I think when you're, you're that slightly nervous way, when you start your first role, aren't you anywhere in those early roles? And if these are the stereotypes, you're absorbing, and you're seeing, and you're adapting your behaviour, as you said to fit, then you can understand how that happens. And why it holds us back at that early point. So absolutely, and I think it gets compounded doesn't it later in life, so with them?
Jenny Jenkin:
Very interesting point, Ruth about, you know, your first step, you can be held back, then you get this like compound interest on your mortgage, isn't it? Yeah, every year that the impact of timeout for caring responsibilities, whether that be childcare or other forms of caring, the cumulative effect is, when you're at the peak of your career, you're going to be some years behind where you might have been had you not been the gender you were born. So it's, it's really tough. Yeah, sorry, going, you've given some examples of sort of some of the stereotypes that you've experienced personally, in your career. What else have you seen around you that you've sort of absorbed at that point, that's that sort of potentially impacted you personally, one of the interesting things is, and I think I can look back on this now, you know, very late in my career and see it very differently. And that's a bit of a privilege, but certainly meetings committees, having a voice around the table, I think I tend to have a slightly introverted approach at meetings, if I've got something to say, I'll wait for the right moment. And I'll drop it in if nobody else is clearly jumping to get in before me. Generally speaking, if you look at the breakdown of who's talking at a meeting, or a committee, the enormous that men will tend to be more confident, bring forward their opinion. And I think what I've observed is very subtle ways in which women are slightly excluded from conversations at committee, or meeting fora.
And, and as I've got older and more confident, I felt more able to just hold my ground and have that really uncomfortable moment where you, you actually talk over somebody that's trying to interrupt you, and that feels awful. You can feel it in your stomach, but it's a real joy. And it can change things it can make people think, oh, okay, that felt odd. So I think meetings are a real example. And I think women finding their voice, me finding my voice, some interesting things, some takeaways from that about the percentage of time women have the stage.
Ruth Wood:
Yeah, I don't know if you've come across Mary Beards, book women in power. And I love it you're nodding furiously, but I find it so interesting, because if when you look back at how women's voices are received over time and how that shows up now in meetings. I remember being told to sort of think about the pitch of my voice and knew did I want to deepen my voice to make it more authoritative, and all of these sorts of things so that I was heard in meetings, and it's a really difficult trajectory to kind of try and navigate, because as you can move into leadership roles, the challenge is that a lot of the not in every organisation, I will caveat slightly, but in many organisations in many environments, the stereotype that is held up as the kind of how to lead has traditionally been a male stereotype, masculine behaviours, even to the pitch of your voice and all of these things. And, you know, that shows up as you've just very eloquently described, when you're sitting around the table being talked over, trying to get your point across. And of course, we've all got that slate open, I want to be very polite as well, and it's such a difficult balance to find, how do you retain that essence of who you are, without being forced into an uncomfortable stereotype in order to feel like you belong?
Jenny Jenkin 11:28
Gosh, and that's a huge difference. But what a challenge, because I think we do we subconsciously reflect on that through our working lives, don't we? How do I, how do I make impact at this next meeting? How do I prep to make sure I've got the right points and the right time. And I think that we, we do get progressively better.
And I think that as I have moved more into the chairing role as a female leader, I've been able to use that consciously to better manage the balance of the conversation. And I was just reading another favourite book of mine, which is the Authority Gap by Maryann Sieghart. It's a fantastic but and it's really optimistic book. And it makes a number of really sound points about you know, what can what can we do about this because it's fine to vent and get angry about it. But we need to have some agency don't wait, we need to know what we can do as women and as parents and as partners and as members of society anyway. But the most important one, I think, from Maryann Sieghart, around meetings is put a woman in the chair and see how that changes the tenor, the human engagement, the balance, and I think it's a simple, easy organisational shift to make. And I wonder whether we could just put that out there.
Ruth Wood:
That would be great. I'll caveat this one as well, because we're women aren’t always conscious of this and often need to make space for other women's voices, because I have also seen women behave quite poorly towards other women as well. And I think that's a really great suggestion, but just the visibility alone of having a woman in the chair, let alone the shift in behaviours that becomes possible from that.
If someone is consciously using that position, as you've described, in order to make space for women's voices to be heard, yeah, that it's such a simple thing. And yet it could have such a profound impact on not just what the content of the conversations but the quality of the conversations and the very nature of them.
Jenny Jenkin:
And even what gets put on the table to be discussed. I mean, it's actually that's that's so true, then also what gets dropped off the agenda for because you've run out of time. It's how those those conversations are prioritised? Absolutely key.
Ruth Wood:
I agree.
What would your key piece of advice be for women who are kind of setting out on this leadership journey now and thinking about how do I get my ideas across? How do I get my voice heard? How do I stop myself being drawn into these stereotypes and behaving in a particular way?
What would you say to them?
JennyJenkin 14:28
I think I think the first thing is just don't get overwhelmed by it and feel that there's nothing you can do that you're just a speck on the surface of the ocean and nothing you do can change things because what I have absolutely learned is that every tiny action we have creates a ripple effect. You might not see it, it might not even ripple back to you. But it does make a change have subtle, really small changes, things that you feel comfortable doing are worth doing. So it might be just saying, “Okay, I've got this meeting coming up. When Person X, interrupts me, I'm going to make a conscious effort not to stop talking, and not feel uncomfortable. But what's the worst that's going to happen. And I think, if you can take your courage and try it out gently in safe contexts, then your courage can grow. And then your influence grows. And as women's influence grows in the workplace, then the ripple effect gets much more profound. So it's, it's a slow, steady marathon, it's not a sprint, you don't have to achieve. Let's use the word gravitas. You don't need that overnight. And in any event, I would suggest it's not one to race towards it. It's a gender laden term, that people get advice to come with, as you said, Ruth, a lower pitch, more gravitas. And that means generally operating in in a male, stereotypical way. So I think, recognise the stereotypes exist recognise, you're not going to change the world overnight. But know that everything you do makes a difference. Use your power wisely.
But most importantly, as well find people to talk to so you can get a different perspective, to build your own awareness. So I've had the benefit of some fantastic mentors, and coaches, and from very early doors, a female role models, she didn't know this until later in my career, when I wrote to her and told her exactly the role she played in my life. But she was the leader I wanted to be when I grew up. She embodied certain ways of being without losing who she was. And I never forgot that. And that just up in good stead. Yeah, I think can't underestimate the importance of role models.
And for therefore becoming a role model for other people, as well. Because no matter what stage you're at, there will be someone sitting further down the chain looking up to you thinking, Oh, wow, is that is that how you do that job? Is that how you become that leader is that you know, and so kind of beating, having that in your mind as well. And thinking about what you also want to embody, in that position, I think can be incredibly powerful, because I think in those early leadership positions, it's quite, it can be quite overwhelming. And I certainly found that it was only when someone further down the line, who was more junior said to me, you know, I really look up to you in what you're doing, that it dawned on me that I was also a role model. I was too busy kind of looking upwards. I think a lot of the time thing. I mean, to be honest, for me, at that point, were my role models, there were one or two, but not necessarily always that I aspire to be you know, and they're just weren’t so many women ahead at that time. So it's remembering that you no matter, you might not be way up the chain yet. But no matter where you are, you are also a role model. I think, is this so important.
Ruth Wood:
It's such an important point. So Jenny, just thinking about all of this, we've covered quite a bit of ground already just in terms of thinking about some of the challenges that the women face and some of the things that you've experienced, personally, and seen other people experienced as well.
What practical advice would you have for anybody listening to this, who's in that position at the moment?
Jenny Jenkin:
I think there's, there's all sorts of little things that we can do sort of day to day. So we talked about meetings earlier. And there's always a pot of coffee in the corner with the cups, the number of times I see the women go to the corner and start pouring coffee for others before themselves. I just sit down and wait for somebody to say would you like a coffee? And it's and it feels uncomfortable? Again, anything that feels uncomfortable? For me, that's a signal, you're doing something right, strangely. The number of times we beat ourselves up when we leave a situation where we've obviously been subjected to some sort of really subtle put down that's based on gender. And you can never think of the right reposts in the moment, can you? I mean, and then we leave the room and we judge ourselves yet again. It's a double bind. There are some fantastic ripostes. Just go online, Google repost sexist comments and avoid the rude ones. But there are some great ones. Read them. Have them ready for that moment. You won't regret it!
And the biggest thing I would say is just use humour. Because it's a great way of landing a message without people missing the message because their ego has been so damaged in the process. I mean, it's very rewarding to call somebody out and to shame them. But the question is, is that going to change their behaviour and ultimately, that's what we want. The use of humour, definitely done well, can get people to realise when their behaviour is just a wee bit out of line and they remember it.
Can I Can I throw in one anecdote, which absolutely makes me chuckle every time. So it's, it's, it's a member of my wider family. And she was a sound engineer, which is an unusual profession for women to go into and quite male dominated. And she turned up for a contract arrived in the meeting room and the male, sort of client group arrived and manager said, Oh, great. Could you just pop to Costa, we'll have three Kappos, one almond croissant, and a latte. Wow. And she sat and she thought, Okay, I've got a choice here.
The choice she made was to go down to Costa to get the order to bring it back, placed it in the middle of the table. Almost for a few moments, the manager said, Okay, I think we're waiting for the sound engineer. At which point she said, I am the sound engineer. And the look on his face was apparently something to behold. But also the look on the faces of those who observed and witnessed this play out. And my guess is they won’t have forgotten that. And that will play into their behaviours downstream. So everything we do, makes a difference somewhere along the line and that one, that's one of my favourites.
Ruth Wood:
That’s a great anecdote, and well done for her to just quietly making the point.
Jenny Jenkin:
Absolutely, it takes quite a bit of courage to do that.
Ruth Wood:
Oh, definitely. I could feel my blood pressure going on her behalf!
All right. So Jenny, just to, to sort of a round us off a little bit. I've got a few little quick fire questions for you. Okay.
Jenny Jenkin 22:14
I'm ready.
Ruth Wood:
Good. What's the best piece of advice anyone has ever given you?
Jenny Jenkin:
Do you know, I think I think this is advice from my mum, as a child, when things are getting rough. And it's that fake Latin phrase, let me get it right, illegitimate my long carborundum. You know, don't let them grind you down, frankly. And that, that bizarrely, has served me well. But there's another phrase, I suppose as sort of a phrase that goes through my mind when things are a bit tricky, which is, don't sweat the small stuff. And it's all small stuff. And for me that says, find a way to get perspective on this jump forward five years and look back on this moment to look different. I think that's that's what I would say is been the most powerful for me personally.
Ruth Wood:
I can absolutely see how that would be. Next one:best book that's made you reflect on your own personal growth and development?,
Jenny Jenkin:
Gosh, my own personal growth and develop that's got to be without question, Time to think by Nancy Klein. Soyes, and it's all about the human mind and how fantastic it is. If we just pay attention, and don't interrupt, and for me that plays in beautifully to the equity and equality agenda. If we just use some of that fantastic advice about how to create the conditions for people to think beyond their wildest dreams, then equality and equity would just happen naturally. And we'd all be having a good time. So Nancy Klein, that is my favourite reflective moving book.
Ruth Wood:
Wonderful – it is a fantastic read. I highly recommend it as well.
All right, so you said there that the best advice was don't let them grind you down, and they do grind you down a little bit, because it does happen and we all kind of feel that at times. What's the best music for you to listen to give you a lift? What lifts you back?
Jenny Jenkin:
Oh, wow. Okay, now this may come as a surprise. But for me, it's Black Sabbath. So Heaven and Hell. What you really want it is music that will take you on a journey up and down and enter this swirling, fantastic dance finale. And it is. It just gets me every time. Wonderful.
Ruth Wood:
Jenny, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us today and for giving us your time, you’re a busy lady, and I really appreciate it.
Jenny Jenkin:
Thank you so much for asking me. It's been a real treat. Thank you.
Ruth Wood 25:10
So what are your takeaways from that conversation with Jenny?
Well, for me, there were three things that really stood out in terms of what she was saying around how to navigate some of the stereotypes that we can get caught up in.
The first one is to get support early in your career, whether that's working with a mentor or a coach or finding role models to look up to, and also sort of surrounding yourself with, with cheerleaders with people who can, who can really lift you up and, and help you maintain your confidence.
The second thing was really that not to let other people's perceptions of you stop you applying for those first promotions. You know, Jenny gave that anecdote about what had happened to her the this of her boss, putting it off applying for the first promotion. So not to let that stop you. Because, as I kind of pointed out, all the research shows that that first rung on the ladder is the one that's most broken for women. It's where we fall behind fastest in our careers, and it can be the one that has the most impact in the long term. So don't let people put you off applying for a role if you feel it's right for you.
And the third thing is that while being a woman in leadership can be a tough gig, there is absolutely hope. There are changes, there are things that we can do in order to have more impact, have more influence, kind of use things like Jenny suggested using humour to sort of challenge people in in a way that they might hear that challenge and reflect on their own behaviour and change that behaviour potentially. So while it can be tough, there is always hope and we can do things to have more impact and to increase that impact going forward.
Thank you for joining me for that episode with Jenny Jenkin. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. If you would like to connect with Jenny after the show, you'll find the link in the show notes. I look forward to speaking to you again next week, where I'll be talking about finding energy when you have none. Speak to you then.
Ruth Wood 27:16
Thanks for listening to this episode of Frustrated and exhausted. Hit the Follow button for future episodes. You can also follow me on Instagram at resonate leadership and LinkedIn @ruthalexandrawood. I’d absolutely love to hear from you. Frustrated and Exhausted is brought to you by Resonate Leadership and the wonderful team at the Podcast Boutique. I'm your host, Ruth Wood. Take care and speak to you soon.
