41· Can Leaders Care Too Much? With Helen Whiteman
Podcast show notes
In this episode, I chat with Helen Whiteman, a seasoned CEO with a fascinating career journey marked by curiosity, learning, and the occasional risk.
Helen opens up about the unique challenges leaders face when they care deeply about their teams, and how that can sometimes cloud judgment. We discuss how to recognise when caring too much might be affecting your decision-making and the importance of taking a step back to regain perspective.
Here are the highlights
(04:27) Career progression
(09:36) Adapting to challenges
(19:56) The importance of taking breaks
(24:58) Managing stress and expectations
(29:58) Managing workload
(35:54) Managing overwhelm
Connect with Helen here
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Ruth
Hello and welcome to today's episode of frustrated and exhausted. Today I'm in conversation with Helen Whiteman. Helen joined the Chartered Institute of Taxation in September 2019 as CEO from the regulator CILEx, where she was CEO Since 2015. She studied law at De Montfort University before undertaking a master's in IT at the University of Warwick. And she's currently a volunteer trustee for the Discover Children's Story Centre in Stratford, London, and for ECO Birmingham. She's a champion and former trustee of the legal mental health and well being charity Law Care, and is also a Mental Health First Aider. Helen is someone who has a huge passion for people and is a really experienced leader. And today, we're going to be focusing on whether it is possible for a leader to care too much. It's a really interesting subject. It can be viewed from lots of different perspectives. So we're going to dig into that. Now join us for this conversation.
Helen, welcome to Frustrated and Exhausted. It's lovely to speak to you today, looking forward to this conversation. So kind of just to kind of get settled into the conversation. For people listening, so they get a feel for kind of who you are and what you're about, could you tell us a little bit about your career today and how you ended up as CEO of the Chartered Institute of Taxation?
Helen
Wow. Okay, what an opening question. I'll try to keep it short. I guess I never set out in life - does anybody? - to be a CEO. I didn't wake up one morning doing my GCSE thinking, Yes, I want to be the CEO of a professional body. I've just taken a very varied route through life, both in my time as a young adult, so the different things I did outside of school are quite a big part of the guide Girl Guide movement. So I was a young leader. So I guess that's my was first foray into volunteering. But also, I guess studying. I studied a law degree. I went into a firm where my father was a lawyer over the summer holidays and was on reception, doing time recording. And thought, blimey, law's not for me. There's no way I could sit there and record every six minutes of my time. Just didn't, sort of couldn't make that connection. So I went off to study IT, which was totally random. I'm going back now, probably to 1996 or seven, that sort of gives you, ages me well, but it was not really heard of what it was, but it was all sort of a, can I say, a bit of a geeky thing that computer science people did. But my degree was more of a business IT degree, and I just threw myself in at the deep end. And from there, I came out of university thinking, right, well, I'll do what most other people do, register for the one of the graduate trainee schemes for a high street name that anybody's heard of, whether it's a manufacturing company or it's Marks and Spencers or wherever. So I left home I had one month rent in my pocket, and rented a room in a house in South London, and got the bus into Moorgate on the Monday morning and went straight to the temp agency called Office Angels, and said, I need a job because I need to fund my life here while I'm waiting for these interviews to take place, and they put me in to cover in an investment house called Equitable Life for a two week assignment while a lady was off having fun around around Thailand, and when she returned, the boss of the department, who was the, If you like, the director of PR and investment relations said, well, we'd love you to stay. Can we offer you a job? And I thought, well, that was great. And I managed to negotiate an extra few 1000 pounds a year on top of what I knew the graduate schemes were paying. And I guess my career has been a bit like that. It's been about being curious about areas outside of my natural comfort zone and background and skill and knowledge from a, I guess, an educational background, but also being willing to take a few risks and have a bit of an adventure. So I guess I moved around in my career.
I stayed in investment PR and marketing. I'd kept in touch with my master's degree supervisor, Penny lovely lady, and she had managed to secure some funding from a research funding council. So when I got a little bit tired of the investment PR marketing job, and I couldn't really see any progression, particularly for women, I have to say, all I could see around me were lots of very capable senior males. Then I left, went back up to the Midlands and joined her as a research fellow looking at contract relations in UK aerospace, which, again, okay, kind of, you know, law related, as per my first degree. But I knew nothing about UK aerospace, but I was willing to give it a go, and she was willing to let me try. And that then led to a happy couple of years in academia. I did some teaching. I was very lucky to have the opportunity to go to Hong Kong to teach overseas students who are part time with Warwick University on various master's degree programs. And I taught law. We were then lucky enough to secure some funding for Business to Business Centre, which was the first of its kind in the UK, based out of Warwick University, where you had heads of industry, some high flyers from IBM and a few other organizations who were setting up this, you know, cutting edge technology place, and they were looking for a project leader, and approached me, and I said, Yeah, I'll give that a go.
So I did that, and then I kind of probably calm down a little bit in terms of, well, I ought to think about perhaps something a little bit more longer term than just jumping from role to role and feeling like I was going left and right on a climbing frame, rather than perhaps the most direct route to wherever I thought I wanted and needed to be. I had no fixed ideas at that time. I was just enjoying the diversity of all the different roles, and I suppose I then settled a bit more. Went to a membership network of law firms called Lawnet, based in Leamington Spa, which happened to be where I was living, and very small organization, eight members of staff, where all the members were small and mid- sized law firms across the UK. I was Director of Member Services there, which essentially was providing anything from training to annual benchmarking to managing partner supper evenings to deals with suppliers to a group PII scheme, that was all sort of what we delivered, and I really enjoyed it. But again, I couldn't really see progression. And it wasn't so much about wanting to be the top of the tree, but I felt that, I always feel that if you, if you run out of steam in a role, and you can't think of what else to do, then maybe it's time to let someone else have a go.
I've always thought that. So it came at a natural time to leave. I saw this role advertised at the Institute of Legal Executives in Bedford, which was head of corporate affairs, again, didn't know really much about policy and governance and looking after council members who were volunteers, but I applied. I was successful. Was in that role for a few years that I guess, was my first experience of professional bodies. They created, then through a restructure, role of Chief Operating Officer, which then encompassed all of membership, all of qualifications, marketing, everything you might imagine, as a number a number two to the CEO. And I really enjoyed that for a few years. Was very passionate about that, partly because my dad was a chartered legal executive, and I could relate to it and the experience of lawyers who don't go to university to become qualified. They either study part time through sort of FE learning or distance learning. And I thought that was brilliant. So I got very I was very attached to it, and I had a soft spot.
One of my first jobs there was to secure a royal charter. And again, I didn't know about how to secure a Royal Charter, but you just approach tasks like that. Practically, you do your research, you speak to who you need to be, speak to and you and you follow a process. So it was great when we received the Royal Charter. I was actually on honeymoon, traveling through Italy with my husband, and I remember the lady at the Privy Council messaged me because I made a promise that she would message me when the Privy Council meeting had taken place and we were just waking up for breakfast in Positan, and when I got the message to say, yes, it had been approved by the Queen in Council. I think I did open the windows onto the balcony and just sort of yelled Eureka. I don't think it was in Italian, but there was some form of exclamation to the Bay of Positano that we'd secured a royal charter. So I spent many happy years at the institute, both in head of corporate affairs, role, Chief Operating Officer, role, and then I saw in our subsidiary company that there would be a vacancy arising through retirement for a Chief Exec of the regulator.
I applied for that, and somehow was successful. Again, regulation wasn't really my area of expertise, but then, well, it was about running a business more than anything. And you there were experts in the team who knew all about standards and regulation and anti-money laundering and all the good stuff that comes with regulation. And I enjoyed that for several years, it was quite a tough, challenging role, quite a lot of challenge, both from oversight, regulation that existed and still exists, but also working as part of a group of companies. And the role there, we had a team of about 20 loved that sitting in the open plan with everybody, got to know everyone really well and their life outside of work, because that's important for me too. So yep, stayed there for about three years, and then had a phone call on my drive to work one morning saying, oh, there's a role going at the CIOT. Did you think about it? And I said, Well, I am, I am looking and yes, I had seen it, to be completely honest with you, I ruled myself out because I thought you're probably looking for somebody completely opposite to me. A, I'm not a tax person, and B, probably I'm. I don't know how I would describe myself for the role, but probably some a bit more of a wild card, a bit more of a curveball type person. Oh no, they, you know, they're really looking for something different. So the rest is history, and here I am, nearly five years later, still smiling and still enjoying every day and lapping it up and feeling full of energy and enthusiasm. And that's how I got to where I was. So it's probably a very long answer, but hopefully a bit of sort of color.
Ruth
Yeah, definitely sounds colorful because there's a there's a real sense of the way in which kind of that curiosity and learning has kind of driven the choices that you've made and the opportunities that you've chosen to take. And I guess in choosing to take one, you choose not to take others, don't you?
You've said a few times during that that actually you're not, maybe the obvious choice, or you haven't had the exact skill set, and yet you still got those roles. What do you think it is that you've kind of specifically brought to the work that you do and have done that makes you the choice?
Helen
I just think I'm a very practical person. I'm very calm in a crisis. Hopefully I demonstrated that when I joined the CIOT in September 19, and we, not long after, went into lockdown, and it would have been quite easy to have panicked, yeah, like, like, a lot of people understandably thinking, blimey, okay, how do we get our operations online? What does this mean for our income? What might this mean for our membership? Are they all going to leave in droves? Because, you know, we don't know what the financial position might be, but that wasn't the route I took. It was really probably back to my Girl Guide background of you know, here's a challenge. You're in charge as the team leader. Go away and lead a team and pull them through it.
So I think what makes me different is I've never shied away from a challenge like that. I think I quite relish it and come into my own, and I just have perhaps recognized and accepted more as I've got older, because I have a special, big birthday this year that you can't control everything. You won't know all the answers, but neither does anybody else, and I recognize that too. Now with discussions around artificial intelligence, I've just returned, as you know, from a few days in Germany late last week, where I met my counterparts from other jurisdictions, including Canada, South Africa, Hong Kong, the Netherlands, Germany, etc, and we've all been chatting about what we're each doing in response to AI, both operationally but also strategically. And it's reassuring to know that everybody is roughly in the same place. We're roughly thinking the same things. And they're like, it's okay not to have all the answers, but as long as we go about it in a calm, sensible way we think about risk, we think about who our stakeholders are, then that's the best I think, that anybody can expect of us.
Ruth
It's very well put, actually, because I think there is that sense sometimes when you're looking at a new role and you think, no, that's maybe not for me. I'm not going to take that risk. This would be a bit further out of my comfort zone than I'm that I'm comfortable with, and you hold yourself back and you haven't done that. How has trusting your own instincts helped you in that?
Helen
I think a lot of it comes with just experience from the diversity of roles that I've had to it's very easy when you're in a challenging situation, which can be stressful for different reasons, to lose sight of all the challenges and stressful situations that you've already been through and you survived. And I think it makes you stronger. It's never comfortable at the time. Is it? You might there might be some emotional issues, there financial issues. You can lose clarity if you're not careful. You can't see beyond the end of your nose in some in some situations. But I think if you just take some deep breaths and think, Well, actually, I had a tricky situation. It was completely different subject, completely different people. But actually that was a tough time I went through three years ago, and I came out of it, and I actually benefited from it, and I couldn't see it at the time. And yes, it was highly charged for lots of different reasons. But actually, I think the human instinct for survival is so strong, both in a personal and a professional level, that we somehow find a way. Now, not everybody can do that on their own, and I'm certainly not here saying, you know, I'm Superwoman with a cape. I don't need anybody around me. I absolutely do. And it's knowing who are those people that you can just have a little vent to, or you can just have a sounding board with to say, I think I'm a bit lost on this. I can't see the wood for the trees. Or did you think that? Or is, or is it just me? Am I just having a funny five minutes? So it's working out who those allies are, and it might just be a quick WhatsApp message or a quick teams chat or a coffee that A, keep you grounded and B, keep you on a track to know that you will come out the other side. And it might be in two days, two weeks, two months, two years. So I always think it's good to have a group of people that you are well connected with, that you can speak openly to, and that you wouldn't put them in an awkward position, but that you can just, you know, like phone a friend, yeah, every so often, yeah, they can do it to you.
Ruth
I think that's so important. And I guess the thing is, when you get to CEO level, which you've obviously been there for quite a long time, you know, the buck stops with you in that organization each time. And I guess I'm interested in how, in that scenario, when you're the person, do you find that network? Do you find those people to have as sounding boards? Because obviously, there's some things you can talk to people within the organization about, and there's things where actually maybe it's a bit trickier.
Helen
Yes, it is. So my husband is very good listener, yeah, but I generally don't use him as a sounding board, because I just think, well, you know, you've got your job as well. So yes, we do chat, but don't chat that often about work, other than if you sort of overhear one another and you just say, Oh, is that you okay and what's happening there? But generally, we don't tend to chit chat about work. You know, I'm really lucky that I have lots of friends. I've kept in touch with lots of people that I've worked with in the past who I consider friends and good if you're independent judgment boards are great. And where I am now, there's a fantastic volunteer network. We've got lovely trustees. We've got lots of lovely volunteers on committees. So there's people who I know I could have a chat with whether that needs to be in confidence or not. And I don't, you know, I don't use that all the time, but, and they know that I would only use it sparingly as well, but it's, again, it's a reciprocal arrangement. So I would say to anybody, look left and right and actually look below who those people are. It's what's the kind of thing that you're looking for a sounding board on. And has someone helped you with that before? Have you helped someone else with a similar issue? You know? Oh yes, Ruth, you approached me about this and we talked it through. Can I just approach you about something and talk it through? And you'll either say yes or you'll say no, but it's, I think we all know, if you could write down on a sheet of paper, if you had a sticky subject, who are those three or four or five people that you would contact, and I'd encourage you perhaps just to write them down if you can't think of them because they are there, even if you're the kind of person that thinks, oh, well, I don't like to trouble people. I think in life, eight out of 10 people like to help each other, yeah, so just have the confidence to get your phone a friend list out when you do need it, because it does make a difference. Yeah, no, for sure, it's sometimes easy in stressful times, I guess, to kind of feel that building up and feel that you can be on your own with stuff, when actually, if you manage to step back for a minute, and as you see, if you've got your list there to prompt you, yeah, those people are around, and that really helps.
Ruth
I guess you're obviously somebody who cares a great deal about the work that you do and the people that you work with. Do you think it's possible in leadership to care too much?
Helen
I don't think it's possible to care too much, but I think it is possible to let your feelings for people override your judgment. So I have been through an experience where I knew all the members of the team on a sort of personal level. We would go out occasionally and socialize I'd know about their their home life, or their family or their pets, or, you know, whatever was going on in their life. That what was important. And when we then approached a period of time where essentially our future was looking a little bit shaky, I then felt on my shoulders, was the responsibility for the entire team. And it did weigh me down. It sort of affected my judgment. And as you say, not being able to step back because I was so engrossed with, well, it's, you know, it's all on me, and there's 20 people here who might have mortgage payments or rent payments to make. And because I could, you know I could, I was seeing them every day. I was chatting to them about life and trying to be as open with them as I could about particular situations. But knowing some things I wasn't able to share, or some things it wouldn't be appropriate to share because you didn't want to concern them. And I got to a point where I just felt a bit frazzled.
What I did was I removed myself from the situation, and I just had, I think it was two or three days away from work. I'd already sort of spoken to a couple of the senior colleagues to say I need to just take this time away because I'm losing a sense of perspective and to do the best for us and the best for those colleagues. So I did, and I use one of my phone of friends, and I can picture it now. I was sitting at home, I was in my onesie. Yeah, confess. I confess I have a onesie, and I'm not afraid to wear it. And this lady who had been a colleague through work, but not directly linked to this organization, came around and sat with me and just listened. I think I probably was a bit teary, I was a bit emotional, I was probably very irrational, probably all the things that you describe on your podcast title was it exhausted and emotional. So I was all of those things, all going on at once, and just through her listening and us talking it through, I sort of, I guess, I released all that that emotion and came back to a point where I thought, Okay, well, this is what I can control. This is what I can't control.
I could see then the makings of a plan as to how to approach something. So we, I mean, we chatted for it, what felt like probably three or four hours, had lots of cups of tea and dark chocolate digestives - it has to be dark chocolate, it can't be milk. Just saying!Ruth
Top tip for anybody who's working with you!
Helen
Yeah, dark chocolate Mcvities. Other brands are available. I do like a McVities.
So we just by talking it through, releasing the emotion that was clearly built up within me. I then spent another, I think it was sort of leading up to a weekend, so I then had a lovely sort of couple of days over the weekend just to press that reset button. And I guess my message to anyone is, if you find yourself sort of spiraling like I did, and the weight of caring - whether it's people or you care about or the outcome for your business or your charity or whatever situation that if you can't see a way clear, then back to your phone a friend list. Just take yourself out of that storm. Just step out of it for a few days or a few hours. What you will best judge how much time you think you might need, and just remove yourself from it and the noise that comes with it, and go and walk in a park, or just a complete change of scenery, a complete change of face and voice, to just bring you back to pressing a reset button to then think, actually I can do this. It might not, you know, it might not work out, but I think I know what I need to do that is to the best of my ability, that if I look back on it in 10-15 years or longer, that I can say, Yeah, I did the best I could, and everybody knows that I did the best I could, and I shouldn't beat myself up about not being Wonder Woman and not being perfect, because none of us are.
Ruth
That is something that I think is very difficult to get perspective around, doesn't it, because sometimes you feel the weight of those expectations, and often they're not anybody else's expectations, but our own of ourselves. And those are the hardest sometimes, aren't they?
Helen
They are, and you can blow it out of all proportion. It's, you know, the mind plays crazy tricks on us, and, you know, just little things that crop up from day to day in life, the mind always wants to take you to the worst possible outcome, negative space. Yeah, it's very easy to arrive at that same worst outcome when, actually, if you use those reference points, looking back on your life, whether it's a work, a situation or school or college or university or something at your local sports club, wherever it is, you know that? Oh yes, I remember that. And I remember thought this was going to happen, but it didn't. It's things generally don't turn out as bad as you think they will, and the sooner that you have a mindset that stops yourself from going into the depths of despair, almost the quicker you are to get yourself out of it by focusing on that action plan.
Ruth
I think this can be one of the hardest things about these sorts of scenarios is, how do you actually recognize when you're there? Cos sometimes you get so sucked in that you almost don't realize where you are with it until it's kind of you were right in it and trying to kind of deal with it also for you in that scenario, how did you actually, I think you used the word frazzled? How did you recognize that that was where you were at and you needed to do something about it?
Helen
I recognized it because I was not sleeping very well. So I'd wake up not having panic attacks, because that sounds quite dramatic, but I would certainly wake in the small hours thinking about work. I would be dreaming about work. I would just find normal tasks a challenge. So, you know, having a big inbox would be overwhelming. You can't see the wood for the trees. You know a friend or a family member might ask me a really simple question, and I couldn't give a simple answer. So that, to me, was indicators that there was just far too much going on inside my head, and I just needed to find a way that I think they call it the stress bucket on there, that Mental Health First Aider training, and wow, was my bucket overflowing. And I just thought, well, this is ridiculous. What are you doing to yourself? And you know, you can't be the best for others if your buckets overflowing. So let's find a way to, you know, take the pressure off, empty the bucket, or at least get rid of half of it and then just start press that reset button.
Ruth
I think that is great advice. And I do love the stress bucket. I think so often we're trying to top, top ourselves up, and we kind of can't, because it's like, it's got holes in and we
put more in the top, and everything's falling out the bottom and so we never get equilibrium again, until we deal with those stresses. And actually, like you say, take that step back.
Helen
No, it's easy to do when you're in the moment, and I think some part of it is the expectations and demands that we place on ourselves. Because, again my experience has been and maybe, you know, maybe I've just been very fortunate that eight out of 10 times, it doesn't matter if it takes me an extra day or an extra week to reply to something, but I my natural state is to want to do things efficiently, quickly. Now yesterday, even before you've asked me, I'm anticipating what you need. And that's just a bit daft, isn't it? If you ask most people, and you get yourself all whipped into a frenzy thinking, you know, I've got this deadline on Friday, and I think it's going to be Monday, and, oh, I'm not sure, and maybe I could pull some late nights. No, just speak to the person that you're doing the report for and say circumstances have taken over. Would it make a difference to you if it was Monday rather than Friday? And my experience has been nine times out of 10 people say no, Monday is absolutely fine. But again, you sort of layer your own pressure on yourself, and then it can sort of spiral. I've used that word a few times, where you set them realistic expectations of yourself, and I think that's tough. You know, we're we're human. Yes, we're here to work, but we're also here to live and have a life outside of work.
Ruth
It's really important. And sometimes when people put a deadline on something, it sometimes is a deadline, but quite often it's sort of an arbitrary date that somebody's just kind of gone, Oh, if you could do it by then, that'd be great, yeah, but you kind of get all fixed on it, and I've done that so many times. And the other thing, I think for me, that really contributed to times when I've been overly stressed, like overly overly stressed, has been being over enthusiastic, saying yes to too many things, and kind of getting myself in that position of overwhelm where I'm just like, Okay, I was completely unrealistic about this, yeah, but it's, being over committed and then forgetting that actually you can go back and renegotiate that for a lot of the things, it's not going to be the end of the world. And if you're upfront with people, and you give them something that is a bit more realistic to work to, then actually that's going to be fine.
Helen
Yeah, no, I recognize that as well. I recognize that I do say yes a lot, but I have had to teach myself to say no or not now, Yes, I guess that's been important in this role, because you can get carried away and you know the next new technology or service for members or qualification, whatever it might be, you can go off down a rabbit hole on it, but you must. Your role is to keep that eye on the vision, the purpose, why we're here, who we're who we're here for, and keeping if you like, the ship on track. That doesn't take practice, and you don't always get it right, but it's about putting your hands up when you get it wrong. And hopefully, if you're lucky like I am, and you have a culture which isn't blame, it's support that makes a big difference. And even if you are in a culture where perhaps it's a blame culture, you haven't done and you said you would, then there's two choices there, isn't there. It's find a culture that you like to work in.
And I know that sounds very easy for me to say, but hopefully I've demonstrated that it is possible, if you take risks, that you can find really nice places and really nice cultures to work in, or you just sort of stop putting the pressure on yourself to always do things when you think people want them and need them actually, when is actually more of a realistic goal and an expectation. That's very good advice. And I think that difference of culture, it's fast, and it makes a huge difference to your working day and your life and how you feel about things often. But we all have choices, and we can make them. It's just Yeah, choosing to Yeah, and they won't always be easy, but you do feel so much better once you've made a decision about, well, this isn't for me. It's almost like the weights lifted from your shoulders, even if you haven't got the next job. Or it might not be a job, it might be a personal situation or a social situation.
She won't mind me sharing this. This is my mother’s advice now, so my mum is 79 and very sort of actively involved in her local community, does lots of volunteering. And she said we were talking about New Year's resolutions last December, and she said my only resolution this year Helen is to remove people from the social circle who add no value or bring no joy. And I said, Oh, that's a bit harsh. Mum, and she just said, I'm sorry, but there are, you know, people who take all the time without give. And she said, I'm not looking at all for people to give all the time, but they just come along moaning about their health, or whatever it might be, and it just sucks the pleasant environment that we find ourselves in. And yeah, of course, from time to time, I will have a little moan about, you know, what's going on in her life, but not all the time. So she said, you know, just people who are energy zappers, or people that you you've fallen into a routine with, of oh, well, I always go away with her in January for sale shopping. Oh, I always do this with him, and we, oh, yes, we've been playing golf for 30 years. If you get no joy from that connection or that relationship, then just bring it to a close it. It does sound harsh, but she's, she's the better for it.
Ruth
I bet she is. That is brilliant advice from your mum. Life sometimes is short. You we have, we have kind of the time that we have, whatever that is. And if you want to get the most out of it, then you need to make the right choices for you.
Helen
Yeah, in order to do that exactly, sometimes these are not easy or they're not easy conversations, but they're not different. Yeah, it's a short term pain for long term gain. But I guess you know, if I one outcome for me might be that, you know, when I'm in my 80s or 90s, I might be sitting in a care home somewhere and not have too many of my faculties about me, but I'd love to be sitting there instead of staring at a TV with whatever day time rubbish is on, because that's where I've been wheeled in front of, I want to sit there with my own memories of the experiences and life that I've had with the people that I've had it with, and sit there in my own happy world with a smile on my face, rather than sit back saying, Oh, I wish I'd done that. I wish I'd left there. I wish I'd went to see where that road would take me, that relationship with that person, whether it's work or personal, had taken me. I don't want to sit there with those regrets. I just want to sit back and think, oh, yeah, well done. You. You had a good life, you know, you lived it well, you took risks, you had some adventure. Yes, there were some tough challenges, and you were scathed a little bit along the way, but you came out stronger for it, and I think I'd then feel really happy, yeah, I think that's something to aim for, isn't it? That is something to aim for, and it'll be different for each of us. But, you know, that's how I look at things. I don't want to look back and think I didn't do that because I didn't have the confidence, or I didn't want to take the risk, I think just it's it's worth it, it's worth it. It's always worth it. And if nothing else, we learn about ourselves along the way, yeah, we do that's worth doing.
Ruth
Totally! Helen, thank you so much for this conversation. There is a ton in here for people to kind of take away and think about and no doubt, reflect on. And you know, some of that is the stuff of life, as we've kind of just been talking about and some of it is kind of when you feel yourself hitting that point of overwhelm, some brilliant points in there for people to really consider. So thank you for taking the time today.
Helen
I really appreciate it. It's my pleasure. And when you post this on LinkedIn, if anyone has picked up on anything that they want to explore. I am more than happy if they want to connect on LinkedIn and send me a direct message.
Ruth
Brilliant, I will to do that. I will pop your details in the show notes if that's all right and people can do that.
Helen
Thanks a lot.
Ruth
I absolutely love the sense of curiosity and learning and growth and adventure and a little bit of risk taking that Helen has kind of brought to her career. She's obviously had a really interesting career and loads of experience to share with us. And I think what's interesting is that even for someone who is as experienced as she is and has had such an array of work experiences, you can still find yourself in a tough spot when you know things just get a bit much. And I think what Helen had to say about recognizing that, recognizing some of the changes in yourself so that you know that that's what's happening, and you can actually start to make decisions and do something about it was really helpful. I think some of the things that she suggested and the advice she gave about, you know, when you feel like you've lost that sense of perspective in leadership, and you know, you need to kind of get yourself back on track again. You know, whether it's phone a friend or stepping back and taking time out, releasing the emotions that that you know you were feeling like she talked about all this pent up emotion that was inside, and actually just letting that go, speaking to her friend and getting it out was a really big help, in terms of really rediscovering perspective on the situation that she was in and thinking and, you know, I talk about this a lot, and again, it comes up with the clients a lot, when you're when you're sort of in that sense of overwhelm, taking a few moments and identifying what you can control and what you can't and just saying to yourself, you know, I've done my best. And that's the that's all I can really do in this situation, is I've done my best, and that's good enough. And reminding yourself that you've done hard things before and you've got through it, and you can do hard things again, press the reset button and be ready to go again. It's great advice, and I think we can all use that sometimes. So big. Thanks to Helen again for coming on today, and as she said in the recording, if you want to connect with her, I've popped out links in the show notes if anybody wants to speak or get a different perspective from her, take care. See you again next week.
