34· Trust & Self-Trust with Andrea White
Podcast show notes
Join me today as I talk with Andrea White, an independent fire engineer and influential figure in the fire safety industry.
Andrea is the founder of Women Talking Fire, a support network for women in UK fire safety.
In our discussion, we focus on the crucial role of trust in women's careers, exploring how self-trust and professional integrity shape our paths.
Dive into this enlightening conversation on how trust impacts personal growth and professional opportunities in traditionally male-dominated fields.
Here are the highlights
(4:01) Trust in the workplace, personal and professional growth.
(10:24) Building trust and credibility as a woman in a male-dominated industry.
(17:25) Gender bias in the workplace.
(24:35) The importance of speaking up.
(35:23) Resilience and self-trust.
Connect with Andrea:
Find out more about Women Talking Fire here
Get the 5 Day Resilience Kickstarter here
Connect with Ruth
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Ruth
Welcome to Frustrated and Exhausted the podcast for women in leadership, where I help you fulfil your ambitions without sacrificing your sanity, or your resilience.
Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of Frustrated and Exhausted. I'm delighted that you can join me this week, because I'm talking to Andrea White. Now, Andrea is an independent fire engineer and fire risk assessor with her own consultancy now AW Fire Limited. She's also the founder and director of the Women Talking Fire group, which is an independent women's networking and support group for the UK fire safety industry. In 2022, Andrea was voted as an influencer within the fire safety industry by IFSEC Global. And in 2023, she was voted one of the top 100 most influential women in the construction industry. I'm really looking forward to this conversation! We're going to be focusing on trust and the role of trust in women's careers. Join us now and we'll get into the conversation.
I'm delighted today to be welcoming Andrea white to the show. Andrea, welcome to Frustrated and Exhausted. And thank you for being here with us today.
Andrea
Thank you, Ruth, I am delighted to be here. And can I just say that the name of your podcast completely and utterly speaks to me?
Ruth
It was when I was thinking about what to call the podcast, and actually, it was one of those things that, Hey, how do women feel quite often?
AndreaYou've got it. Absolutely. Well done you.
Ruth
Thank you very much. I'll take that as a compliment. Just before we kind of kick off to talk about trust, which is kind of what we're really going to focus on in this conversation, can you just tell us a bit about yourself and your background and kind of how you got to where you got to today?
Andrea
Yeah, okay. Thank you. So my job is, it's called being a fire engineer. Nothing to do with fire engines per se. A lot of people think it is, but it's not. Although I do work around the topic of fire safety. What I tend to do is I help architects to design buildings from a fire safety perspective. I also help building owners with existing buildings in terms of their fire safety. And then I'm also an expert witness for the courts. So I assist in legal disputes around fire safety. And as you can imagine that after the Grenfell tower fire, yeah, there are a lot of legal disputes at the moment over cladding on buildings. So yeah, that's that's what I do as a day job
Ruth
I’m sure that’s keeping you busy. And how did you how did you get into fire and fire safety as a career?
Andrea
Yeah. So initially, I was going to be a forester. And I joined the Forestry Commission that after sixth form college, totally my bag, I was in the right place. And I spent, I think nearly four years in the Forestry Commission working in harvesting, which means timber production, and then I toddled off to university to do a degree in forestry, with a view to going back to the Forestry Commission as a technical grade as a forester. That didn't quite work out. A lot of things in life don't quite work out to how we intend. And I came out with a degree that wouldn't allow me to do that. So I went into property management instead. And I went to the local technical college and managed their buildings and their grounds. We have a large Technical College in Basingstoke. And I became the estates officer. And then from there, I worked in building management for a number of years, including I moved to Hampshire County Council and looked after their care homes from a building perspective rather than a people perspective. And it was at that point that I met various regulators. So perhaps environmental health who might look at the kitchens, and then also the local fire officer who would come to the care homes and look at the fire safety aspects. And I really didn't understand quite where they were coming from. And I decided that I would have a go at applying for regulatory jobs. So I applied to the, the HSE, the Health and Safety Executive. And I also applied for the fire service, doing Fire Safety Enforcement. And I was fortunate enough to get both jobs. And then it was a case of choosing, and I plumped for the fire service. So I spent five years enforcing, by safety legislation, and doing what we call building consultations. So from a regulatory point of view, looking at the design of new buildings, and then from there, I moved out into the private sector and went into consultancy. Yeah, so that's a 25 year career in fire safety
Ruth
In the space of a few minutes, there's no doubt a lot in there to unpack! But one of the things that kind of cropped up when we were talking kind of before this recording, was really around the role of trust, and trust kind of in the workplace in particular. Just thinking about that for a moment, what does trust mean, to you?
Andrea
Yeah, I think trust means a lot of things, doesn't it? So things like honesty, maybe acting with integrity, being reliable, being competent at what you do, being truthful. And also, I think, a really important one is being accountable. You know, we're human, we're not always going to get it right. But actually sticking your hand up and saying, I got this wrong. I'm sorry. And this is how we're going to make it right. And I think for me, trust is a word that wraps up all of those sorts of concepts. Ethics, I suppose is, yeah, is the sort of overriding, you know, being ethical, is wrapped up in trust.
Ruth
Yeah, it definitely is. When you think about that, across the course of your career, so far, what's been the biggest challenge for you kind of around trust and, and in the workplace in particular?
Andrea
Well, interestingly enough, it's not to do with other people. I think in my industry, we do have a big problem. Right now, after Grenfell, about public trust in my industry. And I think that's perfectly valid. And I really hope that within the rest of my career, we can resolve that. But I think for me, the issue around trust for me, was about self trust, trusting my instincts, trusting myself trusting my ability, trusting my gut. And I think, you know, I got to the point a couple of years ago, having established my own consultancy, where I, I ended up in a really challenging position that I did not expect to be in professionally. And they say, don't know, when you when you've got like, an addiction or something, you have to get to your lowest point, and then you'll do something about it. And, and for me, that was a really, really low point professionally. And I realised that I had to trust myself, that actually, perhaps I trusted other people. And I misplaced that trust, that trust hadn't been earned, and wasn't, you know, I shouldn't have trusted those people necessarily, they weren't worthy of that trust. And actually, when the chips were down, I needed to trust myself much, much more. And so I think, the last few years has been about trusting myself. And actually, you know, whether that's self worth or self belief, but actually, you know, your, your ideas and your views are worthy and they are equal. And, and, you know, other people's opinions and viewpoints are not more than yours, necessarily. And I think as women that can be a really tricky one.
Ruth
Yeah, I mean, I, I literally have on my desk right now- a post it that says trust yourself. Because I think it is, is something that came out of some work I was doing a while ago, and I had ignored my gut instincts about something and you know, I've done that a few times professionally and personally as well where I've had a feeling or something and I've chosen to kind of ignore it and override it. What I've been telling myself if you like, and I've always regretted it, you know, when that's happened, because afterwards you just think, ah, you know, I should have I should have listened to myself. That sounds like a really difficult kind of time for you professionally, you know, how have you gone about building that trust in yourself?
Andrea
Oh, golly, well, it's certainly not been an overnight process. And quite recently, I've had my teenage son, he's 18 in the house a lot more, because he's just finished college. And he pointed out to me the other day that I do talk to myself quite a lot. I, normally I'm in the house on my own. And I do, you know, positive affirmations if you like, you know, okay, you know, you need to trust yourself. You, you can do this. And I think I'm quite happy to admit that because I'm sure. You know, it helps. And I, I've got to the point where I don't mind looking a little bit foolish, if the outcome is better. Yeah. And, and I suppose the other thing I've done is, I try and look at things logically. So I'm an engineer. I'm a, you know, problem solving logical engineer. And so I look at the facts, rather than my feelings, because my first feeling when I look at a piece of work is you know, and I'm happy to admit that because I think I think a lot of women feel like that. Yeah. And then I go, Well, hang on a minute. Let's put those feelings to one side. And let's look at the facts. Have you done this type of work before? Yes, lots of times. Okay. And how did that go? Well, it went really well. The client was really happy. The quality of my work was really good. Okay, so the fact that you're feeling like this doesn't necessarily marry with the reality, does it? No. Okay, so you can make a strong cup of tea, and we can just get on with things.
Ruth
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's almost like a mini coaching conversation you're having! One of my absolute favourite coaching questions, when someone's in that place where it feels a bit overwhelming, and you're kind of going right, okay, what we're going to do with this, what's the evidence, you when you're saying to yourself, you know, what's the evidence that you can't do this? You're breaking it down from there.
You work in an industry where there aren't necessarily so many women around. When you have been kind of the only women in you know, I guess these days, it might be with a client team or, you know, and in the past and the teams that you've sort of worked in, how have you gone about building trust with your peers?
Andrea
Yeah, so I don't think I've ever worked in a team with another woman yet. I know. I mean, and that was one of the reasons why I established a group for women in our industry, because I didn't have any women in my phonebook. When COVID hit, I didn't know any other women in the industry. I mean, that just now I know, lots of women, but back, you know, three or four years ago, I didn't know any other women in the industry.
Ruth
That's incredible.
Andrea
Yeah, we're about 8% of the technical industry professional body. And that's much, much better than when I started 20 something years ago, I mean, back then I think you could have fitted us around my kitchen table. So it is getting better. And that's really good. But but to actually come across those women in generally the small groups that we work in as design teams or whatever. Yeah, it's unusual. I don't think I've ever come across another. I've not worked with another expert witness, for example, I know of one or two, too. But I haven't worked, you know, sort of against if you like with another woman on the other side, yet, so I'm hopeful of that. I don't think in answer to your question. How we earn trust? I'm not sure that's a gender related question. I think trust is earned for anyone.
But I do think that there's a gender element to it, in that women are starting at a disadvantage. Especially women experts. And that's not because I'm a female expert, I'm not sort of, it's worse for us, you know, Woe is me. The research actually shows that. I read a fantastic research article. And it was actually about the research was putting a small group of people together and assigning one individual as the expert in that group, it was fictitious. And the incident was a wildfire. And one individual was deemed to be the expert, and was going to tell everybody else how we were going to get out of this wild fire and how we were going to cope in this situation. And what they looked at was, if they allocated a man to be that expert, what happened within the group, the group comprised a number of women and a number of men. And then what happened when you allocated that expert, as a woman. And the results were really interesting. So if the expert was a man, people listened to the man. But if the expert that was allocated was a woman, the group listened more to the women who were non experts than they did the woman who was the expert, which I found absolutely fascinating. And the reason why was terrifying. Yeah, the reason they worked that out, the reason they felt that that happened, was because the woman expert had to go against the grain and had to say things that perhaps not everybody agreed with, because they were incorrect. And they knew the facts, they were the expert. Whereas the women who weren't experts weren't under that pressure. And they could have a view, but could be much more affable with it. And that went down far better than the group being told what to do by a woman that did not, did not bode well, for them, which I think, as a woman expert, is really interesting, the psychology that I have to then consider when I'm in a group in order to be heard.
Ruth
Yeah, it's interesting, because when we started this conversation, and we talked about, you know, what is it that makes you trust, somebody will just trust mean, you know, from your perspective, and we talk about honesty, and we talk about integrity and ethics, and, you know, all of those good things. And this has absolutely nothing to do with that.
Andrea
Nope, no, absolutely nothing. It's ito do with, with what I look like. And I can relate to that. I mean, I've certainly been on jobs earlier in my career, where I've got to the front door, and I've rung the doorbell to an office block or something. Metaphorically, you know, I've met someone, and they've actually tried to shut the door in my face, because they've looked at me, and they've realised that I'm here to do X job. And they've looked at, you know, they've assessed me visually, and decided that I can't possibly know what I'm doing and tried to shut the door on me. And I've had to put my dog my foot in the door in order not to be turned away. And the ironic thing was that in the company, I was the most qualified individual.
Ruth
Yeah, that's really frustrating, isn't it? Because you do know, and I think, you know, you hear a lot about women having to go the extra mile to be the, you know, we'd relying on expertise often as a way to have authority to be trusted you and to be trusted to lead and expertise is often part of our arsenal almost in in that. And yet, still, in some scenarios. Yeah, we're in a position where you have all that expertise. You've done all the hard work, you've got the ticks in the box and the certificates to prove it and everything else. But still, you get that sort of response?
Andrea
Yes. So I can remember fairly recently being on a video call with an architect, a woman who was an architect for a little shopping centre, we were designing in London and an m&e, contractor, a man in perhaps his 60s. And we were talking. It was a really tricky design. And from a fire safety point of view. They wanted to put a roof on it, and it was not going to work with the with the heights of laws and things. So we were chatting about it. And I said look, you know, we're gonna have to do you know, this is gonna be really challenging and the m&a sec contract said, “Well, you know what, I really think we need to get a fire engineer involved in this”. And I said, “Oh, well that's okay because I'm a fire engineer”, as if he hadn't heard the introductions. And for the rest of the meeting, he just sat there with a completely puzzled look on his face. And he didn't didn't say anything. It was, I mean, I suppose you have to live it to actually, and you have to find it humorous. Because if it got to, you know, it would just be incredibly stressful to think that you've done all this study. And all this, you know, you've achieved all these academic qualifications and this knowledge. And yet, people still look at you, and make an assessment based on what you learned.
Ruth
I'm actually sitting here and a little bit gobsmacked to be honest with you. You started off talking about building self trust? How does that relate to that those experiences that you're talking about where I mean, that must sometimes just grind you down? And kind of chip away at confidence and everything?
Andrea
Yes, it I have to say it does. It does make it more difficult. And I think the other thing, you know, I was saying earlier about until a few years ago, when I set up a women's networking and support group, I didn't know any other women in the industry. So I didn't have a group of people to go to, or even one person to go to this happened. And they went, Yeah, I've had that. I totally understand. If I went to someone, it was a man. And they would look at me, I mean, even people who are my mentors or peers, you know that they would listen. But they definitely didn't understand because that's not their experience, in any way, shape or form. It has been tricky. And I think one of the things that has helped, is learning more about the subject, and understanding why I'm meeting that kind of behaviour. Because I think it's very easy to think that it's you. And when you've read some of the books, you know, on gender bias, you start to realise, no, no, no, it's not you. This is patriarchy. This is history. This is this is, you know, gender bias is alive and kicking. And this has actually nothing to do with you. And I think I could see that, logically, again, because these people didn't necessarily even know anything more than my name. They knew nothing about me. You know, so how could it possibly be me? Because they didn't know enough to make that judgement. Does that make sense? It is very tough when it happens.
Ruth
Yeah, that it makes perfect sense. But yeah, I can see that that would be tough, and especially over time. And as you said, for a long time, you were operating with no real support network of other kind of women to sort of turn to and say, Is this normal? Am I alone? Is it me?
How do you handle it then at work when your authority is challenged in that sort of way?
Andrea
I mean, so I've just turned 50 this year. And I set up my own business three and a bit years ago. And, and that took an awful lot of courage. Because, you know, as many qualifications as I had, and as good as my work was, and I had a lot of people saying, you know, you could do this, you could set up on your own. There was a thing inside of me going, you can't do that. But I think I got to the point where I was like, I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. Frustrated and exhausted. Yeah, I was just like, enough, you know, I can't change what's happening out there. But I can change how I feel about it. And I can change what I'm putting myself through. And actually, if I set up my own business, I make the rules. Does that make sense? I've got autonomy, and I can do things my way. And I can say no, thank you. And I can I can perhaps speak up more than I would be able to if I was employed by an organisation.
Ruth
Yeah, there's a there's definitely a freedom in in working for yourself. I know. Obviously working for myself as well. No, appreciate that. Definitely. What makes you want to speak up now?
Andrea
Oh, golly. What makes me want speak up. This is gonna sound cheesy, but I want to sit in my old folks home, when I'm 80 or 90 years old, and look back at my life and know that I made a difference. And it feels like the right thing to do. And I know in my heart that it's the right thing to do, because of the messages that I get from other women, and the feedback that I get, thank you for doing that. I don't feel I can speak up. And I'm so glad someone is doing it. And I am outspoken. I don't think I'm impolite. I don't think I'm inappropriate. I'm not sure that what I say, would be labelled as too outspoken, if I wasn't a woman. But I am prepared to speak up. So that those coming after me have an easier time of it.
Ruth
Yeah, I think that's kind of what we all really want and hope for isn’t it? These changes in society are gonna take time, but it's figuring out how we know navigate as best we can. Yeah. So that we're here to put this in integrity with ourselves so that we feel like actually, we're doing the right thing, the right thing for us, the right thing for the people who have yet to come. And it does take you know, what you've kind of described in terms of speaking up and some of the challenges of doing that, it does take bravery. It takes somebody really set up your own business, but it takes a lot of bravery to speak up as well. That does kind of come obviously, sometimes with personal cost. All of these things do and the kind of pressure that the system the system puts on us, as women has kind of led to kind of increased burnout rates and high levels of stress, you know, among women in leadership roles and women full stop. How is it that we've hit this point, you know? I read some statistics from a little while back last year saying, you know, women are hitting mid and upper career or actually starting to walk away from what would be perceived as success because they've just had enough. How do we get to that point where women are so frustrated and exhausted, that they walk away?
Andrea
Well, I think I was one of them, I suddenly realised that my son was in his early to mid teens, and if I wasn't careful, he would be gone. And I needed to work out how to juggle better between being a mum, I'm a single mum, and being the career professional that I want to be. And so I did walk away from corporate life, and set up my own business so that, you know, if I want to work on a Saturday and a Sunday, I can do that in order that I can, you know, do something that he needs me for at a different time. And there's nobody to stop that. I do think the corporate world has got to better understand. And I think that's going to be difficult to understand a woman's perspective, because most people in those decision making roles aren't women. So, you know, how can they you know, understand what it's like to be in your shoes. It's so different. Now, I can't just disappear off and do an overnighter in four hours away. No, that's just not an option. I can't do that well, up until very recently. But you know, and I'm not sure that those decision makers, you know, even for even for an away day for a fun thing, you know, I can't participate. What do you mean, you can't participate? You know, this is team building. Great, but not for me, you know, because I have to be back to do dinner and look after the child. So I do think we're gonna have to have those difficult conversations. If we want more women at the table in those leadership roles. Because, like it or not, the vast majority of primary carers are women, you know. And I do think that one of the things that did make me cheer I was reading a book called The Authority Gap. By it's a bit wonder MaryAnn Sieghart, it is a great book. And one of the things that they talked about was that she talks about the fact that confidence and competence are not the same thing. And she's absolutely right, isn't she? Because when you think about it, confidence, okay, I understand what the definition of being confident is competent. Does it have any relationship to confidence? Well, no, not really. But we mistake confidence as competence, don't we? And I see that so often around the decision-making table, that the people who are confident might know absolutely nothing about the subject. But they're, you know, saying it in a confident manner. And everyone's following them blindly. And I do think that, you know, we need to have those conversations about just raising that awareness. Do you appreciate that that is happening? Because you're not getting the best people around the table. I, I, I tried to get onto a panel, about cladding on buildings. And I'm seen in the industry as outspoken and too outspoken. And there was no place at the table for me, despite the fact that I'm very involved in this topic. And I said, Well, how many women are there on the cladding working group or panel? And the chap who organised it said, None. And I said, Oh, so that's, that's a bit, you know, skewed? And he said, “Well, I did approach to women. And he said, it's really interesting, you bring this up, because they both said, No, thank you. But may I suggest my male colleague?” And I said, and did that not make you stop and think? Why? They said, No. And he said, No. And I could totally understand why these women would say no, having been in those rooms, because it's, it's quite a charged, male dominated environment. And for women, it's, it's a difficult environment to navigate. It's a totally different atmosphere, to if you've got a much more equally mixed cohort, or if you've got women in a group, it's just, it's just different. So. So you know, when people say, you know, women are leaving, I'm like, well, well, of course they are. Who would want this gig?
Ruth
What is it that makes you prepared to enter the fray? Because you just said the two people said, No, I'm not doing this. Here's my male colleague. What makes you prepare to still go in?
Andrea
So I think it's really, really important that we all have role models, that we all have people that look like us, that are up there, out there. I've done the same with industry events that happen, we have a couple of big expos in the fire safety industry. And I've gone to them and said, look at your lineup of speakers and hosts, they all look the same. I can help you here, because I've now got, you know, X 100 people 550 I think it is women in this woman talking fire group. And I'm happy to approach them. And I'm happy to stand on stage and speak or host so that women in the audience can see people like them as role models. I just think it's so so important. And the feedback I've had is absolutely says that, that people have benefited from that and, and ironically, if you had asked someone who was least likely to want to stand up on that stage, it would have been me, but you know what, feel the fear and do it anyway. Yeah, I you know, because you're only going to be that bad once aren't you? The next time you're going to be slightly better and the first time I was horrendous, I really was and you know what? I was okay with that because it was going to be better than next time. And now I'm very happy to stand up on a stage And I know that men and women are happy to come and hear me speak because I am diligent. I am, you know, honest, I've got integrity. I'm reliable. I'm competent. Trust.
Ruth
Yeah. Yeah. That's it. And showing up.
Andrea
Yes, showing up to be seen and heard.
Ruth
That takes a lot of guts to do. Definitely.
What do you think in your career has been the best advice you've ever received?
Andrea
Oh, golly, the best advice. I think the best advice I've had is honest feedback. I am very happy to receive honest feedback, even if it's negative, because it's a learning opportunity, because I can I, it means I can be better, and I want to be better. So I think any advice I get from someone who I trust from someone who's worth listening to, I think there's a huge caveat there. That says, This was great. But this could have been better. I think, anytime I get that I'm there. You know, I I relish that. I think one thing I have learned is to sift the advice because not everyone is giving you advice, and feedback with the best of intentions. Some are doing it to put you down. So I think I'm keen to hear it. And then I'll decide whether it has a value. Does that make sense?
Ruth
It does. I think that's the important thing with feedback is that we get to choose what we do with it. We can consider all of it. But then we get to decide, actually, how relevant is this to me? Because everybody comes with their own perspective. But nobody is you. And that comes back to self trust again, doesn't it? It does, you know, actually trusting that you know, what's relevant for you and what's not?
Andrea
Yes. And I think I think as a woman, if you don't have that self confidence, you can take that feedback, and particularly the negatives, and you can just absorb all of them. And all it does is feed your, your concerns, your worries, your lack of self worth. And I think I think it's really important for us to, to hear it. But then there's a really important step there hang on a minute. Is this valid? And trustworthy? And yeah, is this valid feedback?
Ruth
So just kind of closing question now. You’ve talked about role modelling and how important that is. And obviously, you are doing that now for other people. And in closing then what would you say, thinking about yourself as a role model now, for other women coming through? What would you say to people kind of coming into their careers now?
Andrea
I would say, look after yourself first, because nobody else is going to do that for you. No one else is going to put you above everything else. And I think that's that's really important. So look after yourself first. That would be that would be my primary point to people. I, I think looking back on my career, I could have done a better job of that. And I think the other thing is self belief. I think it's great to get all the qualifications, I think but as women, particularly women who aren't necessarily confident, I think there's a whole aspect of working on yourself and becoming confident that that you might need to, to actually spend some, some time and effort in looking at because I think that that's how industry works, isn't it, that we're not going to change those decision making groups and those meetings that you're in. And so if you can understand how women fit into that, then at least you've got that knowledge to be able to perhaps navigate those situations better.
Ruth
I think navigating the situations better and going back to one of the very first points you made, can imagine this is all perception. Also knowing that it's, it's not you, it's, it's the system. It's patriarchy. It's, it's not your fault. Because I think as women, we're so prone to taking all the guilt on ourselves. And it must be us, it must be me, must be me. That's the problem. We're not quite getting it right, or whatever it is. But yeah, thank you so much for your time today. And for sharing all of that. There is a lot in this conversation that I know people are gonna get a lot of value out of. So thank you again Andrea.
Andrea
Lovely to talk to you. Thanks very much.
Ruth
What a great conversation with Andrea, that was, and I’ve taken away a few things from that one. I think one of the things that really hit me from that conversation is, you know, there's a lot of stuff around gender bias can be these days, because we're in a different legal framework, maybe from a long time ago, some gender bias can be quite insidious, and sort of almost like low level it can have, it could easily be misinterpreted as something else. But there is absolutely no doubt that you're when somebody takes one look at you and you know, doesn't believe your credentials and tries to close the door on you that there are lots of, you know, Andrea gives some great examples there of some extremely unsubtle gender bias that she and others like her face every single day in the workplace. So I think, you know, sometimes there's a sense that maybe we move past some of the worst things, well, we've certainly moved on, but you know, clearly, in some areas, and we might want to even see many areas, gender bias, it can be extremely unsubtle, and for the people who are experiencing that, that can really come at a cost. I was also really struck by how passionate Andrea was around the concept of self trust, and actually learning to trust yourself, and listen to yourself, and know that you are doing the right thing for you. And I guess, in the face of the sorts of experiences of gender bias, that you continually through a 25 year career, these things take a toll, they will take a toll on anyone. And so learning to trust yourself. And trust your judgement, is really central to kind of maintaining confidence, you that that sense of knowing yourself, and I've talked about this and other episodes, that sense of knowing yourself, so that you can sort of move forward and be confident in your own abilities. Most of all, I think I'm really struck again and again and again, by how resilient women have to be, and how that resilience can really be tested. In this sort of environment, any environment where they're up against this kind of bias as well as the usual challenges of working living. So again, that that real need for women to focus on resilience and think about it actively, rather than kind of slipping into a place where before you know it, you're kind of in more of a dark place yourself or heading into burnout. And you know, I hear this a lot from people, friends, or myself, podcast guests, clients, you know, that actually, this sense of kind of, is not something that happens consciously. But over time, slowly, slowly, your resilience just starts to deplete a bit if you're not careful. So really keeping a kind of focus on that. Thank you so much for joining us this week.
I really hope you enjoyed that conversation with Andrea, if you would like to connect with her the details are in the show notes, as are the links for women talking fire, which is the group that she founded and helps to run now, for women in fire safety. There's also a link in there for my free resilience Kickstarter, so you can download that anytime you like. And really just take out a little bit of time to think about where you're at with your resilience. Look forward to speaking to you again next week. Take care
Thanks for listening to this episode of Frustrated and Exhausted! Hit the Follow button for future episodes. You can also follow me on Instagram @resonateleadership and LinkedIn at Ruth Alexandra Wood. I would absolutely love to hear from you. Frustrated and Exhausted is brought to you by Resonate Leadership and the wonderful team at the Podcast Boutique. I'm your host Ruth Wood. Take care and speak to you soon
